USA: Three Shot & Killed over Shoveling Snow

[skidman]

So you're saying someone who does something not allowed should be shot?

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by skidman

So you're saying someone who does something not allowed should be shot?

No - I'm saying that when you instigate a fight and taunt an armed individual and dare them to shoot you, you shouldn't be surprised when they do. It appears that the two parties had an ongoing feud that finally came to a head.

[skidman]

Victim blaming again. Ah, whatever...

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by skidman

Victim blaming again. Ah, whatever...

If you start a fight, you're not a victim. That's what happened here - the Goys started things and then escalated them before Spaide shot them.

[Aktungbby]

That's not so. A verbal altercation is just that and does not necessitate an 'escalation of force' through physical altercation fists, rocks, clubs, etc, to the ultimate extreme of deadly force by lethal weaponry which can include kicking with a 'shod foot' ie: boot; up to axes, knives, automobiles (road rage at being 'flipped off') and firearms...In 'Merika at least, everyone has a
reasonable expectation of freedom of speach incl. insults w/o getting killed for it.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

That's not so. A verbal altercation is just that and does not necessitate an 'escalation of force' through physical altercation fists, rocks, clubs, etc, to the ultimate extreme of deadly force by lethal weaponry which can include kicking with a 'shod foot' ie: boot; up to axes, knives, automobiles (road rage at being 'flipped off') and firearms...In 'Merika at least, everyone has a
reasonable expectation of freedom of speach incl. insults w/o getting killed for it.

I'm not saying Spaide didn't overreact, but the Goys should have known better. This is a Marcellus Wallace-Tony Rockyhara moment...

“If you step out of here, I’ll knock your a-- out,” James Goy told the suspected gunman, as seen in the video of the encounter obtained by The New York Post.

James Goy then threatened to make Spaide’s life a “living hell” and called him a “d--khead,” as heard on the recording.

“What?” Spaide replied. “F--k you, you f--king scum.”

Goy’s spouse, who is seen holding a shovel in the footage, then showered Spaide with a flurry of curse words.

“You’re the f--king scumbag,” Lisa Goy yelled to him. “You don’t know how to talk to somebody.”

James Goy then flipped Spaide off.

“That’s right...You’re a pu--y, pu--y, pu--y,” he is heard yelling.

In the footage of the incident, Spaide is then seen approaching Lisa Goy, who tells him “go ahead, go ahead.” Upon seeing his weapon, her husband tells him “put the gun down.”

Spaide then fired multiple rounds, striking both him and his wife, ABC News reported.

“Call the cops!” Lisa Goy is heard crying out, then yelling at Spaide, “You f--ker, you!”

Spaide then returned to his home, extracted a second, larger rifle, and returned to gun down Lisa Goy.

“You should have kept your f--king mouth [shut],” he told her before pulling the trigger."

The Goys, with these words, are not themselves reasonable people.

[Aktungbby]

^ Thanks for making my point entirely:

“d--khead,”

f--king scum.”

f--king scumbag,

pu--y, pu--y, pu--y,”

(with attendant flipping off)

You f--ker, you!

are all permissable verbal communications while not striking with a deadly snow shovel...presumably close at hand.

Upon seeing his weapon, her husband tells him “put the gun down.”

Literally a lawful command as the unlawful brandishing of the weapon is a felony offense and Mr Goy is essentially now acting lawfully with a citizen's arrest perogative: the verbal command to desist before the situation escalates to a deadly level and he beans the misanthropic asperger's adversary, Mr. Spade, in self defense against a perceived deadly threat with a snow shovel. The returning with another firearm after the initial infliction of felony deadly assault leaves no doubt as to where the real problem lies. NO IMHO 'bout it!

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

^ Thanks for making my point entirely: (with attendant flipping off) are all permissable verbal communications while not striking with a deadly snow shovel...presumably close at hand. Literally a lawful command as the unlawful brandishing of the weapon is a felony offense and Mr Goy is essentially now acting lawfully with a citizen's arrest perogative: the verbal command to desist before the situation escalates to a deadly level and he beans the misanthropic asperger's adversary, Mr. Spade, in self defense against a perceived deadly threat with a snow shovel. The returning with another firearm after the initial infliction of felony deadly assault leaves no doubt as to where the real problem lies. NO IMHO 'bout it!

The couple involved appear to be the "butter don't melt in my mouth" types who would still be alive if they had been more street-smart and/or hadn't been garbage neighbors. Guy went into his house to get his gun - that's your cue to go home - not follow him bellowing invectives. It appears he first fired warning shots - they should have run. He goes back home to get a second gun, they should have been running home. Based upon the below (from the Pocono Record), I'd almost be inclined to say they possibly deserved it since they apparently had had arguments previously - they went out of their way to throw their snow in his yard - across the street from their yard - threw a tool at him, and kept verbally abusing him - even when they saw he had a gun in his hand. Their "he'll never shoot us even as we continue harangueing him" attitude and utter lack of self-awareness of their own safety is what got them killed.

"Officers found James and Lisa Goy dead in the street, and heard a gunshot from Spaide's home that authorities believe was from his self-inflicted gunshot wound.

Prosecutors said the Goys and Spaide had been involved in prior disputes, and that witness accounts and surveillance video showed the deadly encounter took place as Spaide was shoveling snow and the Goys were clearing their cars.

As the Goys cleared their parking spots, they pushed snow across the street and threw it onto Spaide's property, prosecutors said.

Spaide asked them to stop, leading to a heated exchange during which James Goy threw a tool he was using to clear snow from his car and approached his neighbor in the street, prosecutors said.

When James Goy cocked his fist, Spaide retreated into his house as the Goys continued yelling and cursing at him, according to prosecutors.

James Goy threatened Spaide and made obscene gestures at him before Spaide emerged from his house with a pistol.

Prosecutors said the Goys acknowledged Spaide holding a gun, but that they continued shouting names at him from the middle of the street.

The Goys did not react when Spaide initially opened fire, and both were eventually shot, prosecutors said.

After firing multiple rounds at short range, Spaide went into his house to get an AR-15-style rifle, which he used to shoot the injured Goys again, killing them, prosecutors said."

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by skidman

Victim blaming again. Ah, whatever...

I'm not blaming the two who got shot...but sometimes when you poke the bear, it eats you.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

I'm not blaming the two who got shot...but sometimes when you poke the bear, it eats you.

I wont victim blam either - but this fued didnt start on the day of the shooting. I'm sure bad blood has been at a simmer with these two camps for a while, and it reached its boil on the day of the shooting.

Was the guy right to shoot them? for heaven's sake no

Was the couple right for antagonizing and instigating and nagging him? not at all

are certain groups right for calling this "another AR-15 killing" when it clearly was not that? Nope... and before the bodies have cooled off we all get to have another gun control debate.

if you ask me, both parties have a hand in this wrong. and say both could have handled it drastically better is an understatement.

however, things like this have happened forever. people havnt gotten worse, its just the world has gotten smaller and this sort of "bad news" is worldwide overnight

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

I wont victim blam either - but this fued didnt start on the day of the shooting. I'm sure bad blood has been at a simmer with these two camps for a while, and it reached its boil on the day of the shooting.

Was the guy right to shoot them? for heaven's sake no

Was the couple right for antagonizing and instigating and nagging him? not at all

are certain groups right for calling this "another AR-15 killing" when it clearly was not that? Nope... and before the bodies have cooled off we all get to have another gun control debate.

if you ask me, both parties have a hand in this wrong. and say both could have handled it drastically better is an understatement.

however, things like this have happened forever. people havnt gotten worse, its just the world has gotten smaller and this sort of "bad news" is worldwide overnight

I would ask the question - would this have happened in a society where *everyone* is potentially armed and where civility is more common? Is it true that an armed society is a polite society?

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

I would ask the question - would this have happened in a society where *everyone* is potentially armed and where civility is more common? Is it true that an armed society is a polite society?

Cane killed able with a rock

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Cane killed able with a rock

But if Abel also had a rock...

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

I would ask the question - would this have happened in a society where *everyone* is potentially armed and where civility is more common? Is it true that an armed society is a polite society?

"Smile when you say that, Pa'dner"

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

"Smile when you say that, Pa'dner"

I never felt unsafe when I lived in SE Idaho - and I'd often see people walk into the drugstore, buy a gun, and walk out with it in hand 15 minutes later. Or all of the people walking around open-carry.

Compare that to Philly where they're a bunch of lawless maniacs and you have no idea who is armed, who is high, who is off their meds - or a combination of all three.

*Everywhere* I've lived that has permissive gun laws, I've never felt unsafe and the crime rate was low. Everywhere I've live with restrictive laws, the opposite occurred - or at least it felt that way.