The Royal Air Force - 100 years old today...!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Ok then, to the Royal Air Force
(insert german grumbling )

[blackswan40]

A Staffel of Spitfires



they cant take the Spitfires Mitch

I'll drink to that

[Catfish]

^ one of the better films, still full of propaganda..
Yes, Adolf Galland had really said that, to Goering.

Galland also wrote in his book that it was not the hardware though, or the german pilots, but the strategy. The Spitfire and Messerschmidt types were not so different (yes, curving, radius, weight, wing-loading, i read it all, but after all the differences were small and evenly distributed). Carburettors here, injection and turbocharger there, better curving for the ME at high altitude but not at lower where most fighting took place in the end, and so on.

1st main problem was the fights did take place at lower altitudes, where Hurricanes and Spitfires were a worthy opponent. Bombers flew at lower altitudes and the hunters were ordered to accompany them at that altitude. Big mistake. Galland wrote the fighters should alway have freedom of movement and tactics, the orders given to them removed their main advantage.

2nd problem was the fuel load. The german fighters had around 10 minutes of time to fight, until they had to return to make it to France.

3rd problem was that ejecting pilots landed on english soil, and some of course in the channel. But every surviving english pilot was able to fight the other day, while german pilots were either dead, or taken prisoner.


When Germany switched from attacking aircraft production and military targets to bombing cities for retaliation, the english commanders could not believe their luck. It gave them the time to rebuild enough planes to counter the attacks.
B.t.w. the main defense was done by the Hurricane, not the Spitfire.

[blackswan40]

The Hurricane was a better gun platform also being made of wood and fabric was easier to repair unlike the Spitfires all-metal construction that had to spend many hours in the repair sheds when battle damaged
as the battle progressed our new pilots that had just got their wings after going solo in their tiger moth Raf Bye-Plane Trainer
then posted to an operational fighter squadron may have had 6-10 hours on Spitfires or Hurricanes if they where lucky
then your up against a German Fighter Pilot with 6 kills in Poland 8 Kills in France and 4 kills already in the air war over England
he flys is ME-109 to the aircraft limits for he knows what his aircraft can do our young cadets had to learn quickly or he's a dead duck
but if R J had not invented the Spitfire and the Hawker aircraft Company had not invented the Hurricane then the Raf Fighter Command would have been crossing swords with the Luftwaffe in Gloster Gladiators and Hawker Harts
Also radar was our ace up our sleeve with a limited number of aircraft outnumbered 4-1 we would have had todo standing patrols
with Radar, we sat around the dispersal hut supping tea resting waiting for the phone to ring "2 section scramble"
as they got airborne beeswax squadron airborne were to go Cowsley control I have trade for you over Beachy Head Bandits 40 Plus heading west make Angels one nine

Also when your fighting those Fanatics that believe they are superior to the week feeble democracies and have to prove it daily when military necessity was in direct conflict with the Nazi doctrine the later always won through as in the blitz on London on the 7th September with all our Squadrons up guarding airfields they thought September would be a walk in the park and a prelude to the invasion

[Catfish]

Regarding the first part it might have been wise to think of that before declaring war to Germany.
You know there was a reasonable proposal which could have solved the Poland 'problem', but the english government chose not to react.

Originally Posted by blackswan40

[...]
Also when your fighting those Fanatics that believe they are superior to the week feeble democracies and have to prove it daily when military necessity was in direct conflict with the Nazi doctrine the later always won through as in the blitz on London on the 7th September with all our Squadrons up guarding airfields they thought September would be a walk in the park and a prelude to the invasion

This is was propaganda made of it, the guys of the Luftwaffe were as national socialist as Mickey Mouse. You do not really believe fanatics flying towards England with bone-in-teeth and the urge to kill because of some made-up english inferiority and "because democracy"?

If you are young and dumb and strong and feeling invincible, operating the latest technology, another country declares war to yours, and your government gives you the excuse to act it all out even against better knowledge, what do you do?
They were as young, dumb and inexperienced as the english. Some higher ranks pulled the strings.

Regarding experience some german pilots had made experience before, but most did not fly as pilots anymore in WW2. Some exceptions of course, like Moelders and Galland.

Also lots of pilots from both sides helping each other, german red cross planes landing in the channel to pick up downed pilots of all sides, anchored rescue buoys for pilots, invented by Udet. Never heard of it?
From all i read the english were much more relentless in this war, the radio message "Total Germany" to inform about the declaration of war had already made clear that it was a total and relentless war for them, right from the beginning.
Germany had no interest or reason to fight against England, not in the beginning.

Being young, superiority complex, thinking of being invincible, hybris and folly, yes. Show me young Americans in the Marine corps or anywhere in military circles on this world without that. Which is exactly the reason how wars are possible.

Or, as Len Deighton wrote:
“Both armies were ardent novices, stumbling about in confusion and dying by the hundreds because they didn’t know enough about war to know it was time to run away.”

“When old men decided to barter young men for pride and profit, the transaction was called war.”

[blackswan40]

I think you've misunderstood me why did the Germans switch from targeting the airfields south on the Thames river when they were on the brink of gaining air superiority over the invasion area like all military decisions that Adolf Hitler made was based on the national socialistic doctrine of not loosing face when that doctrine was in conflict with the strategical plan the national socialist doctrine became the primary one when the Luftwaffe raided the shorts aircraft plant in north London ditched their bombs as the ack ack opened up on them the Raf in turn retaliated against Berlin two nights later
so as not to be seen to lose face so to speak Adolf Ordered the destruction of London as prelude the invasion as you rightly stated earlier turning on London was the Germans biggest blunder to date his fighters only had 10 minutes of fuel for much of the time the bombers would lose much of there protection and furthermore would be in range of 12th Groups so-called big wing
The same thing happened at Stalingrad in the winter of 1942 Von Paulus wanted to break out of the encirclement Adolf said no he would send troops to break-in to the Pocket Stalingrad would be supplied by the Luftwaffe the weather was vile and the airlift only brought in a tenth of was needed but he wouldn't let go of Stalingrad because it was named after Stalin and when it was all over Adolf said what is life ? life is the nation the individual has to die anyway beyond the life of the individual lies the nation
the victory or death order ok if your tucked up nice in the Wolfs Lair not good for the poor sixth army freezing to death in their foxholes

[Mr Quatro]

Thank you for these history lessons gentlemen i didn't know some of the reasons that Germany acted in the way they did :

A war like WWII will probably never be played out again

[blackswan40]

I wouldn't be too sure on that score England France and the United States are deciding on their joint action against Syria after the Chemical attack but Russia has warned America and France and England of Dire Consequences if
Syria is attacked
we don't know how far Russia is Prepared to go propping up the Assad Regime
if the west does nothing is that a green light for Assad and Russia to commit more war crimes but if the west commit forces air strikes then the winds of war may blow strong have the human race learned from history and when once the pandora's box has been opened E=MC2 thermonuclear war is only a button press away where damned if we do something damned if we don't
SOP Standard Operating Procedure joint statements and wagging fingers today's headlines in the tabloid press is tomorrows fish n chip wrapping saber rattling from on both sides could escalate things
are we ripe for a Bedford incident Syrian Style

[Catfish]

^^^ There was no national socialist 'doctrine' of not losing face. The latter is just a character trait, and Churchill had it as well. It was very much a game of children playing who can humiliate the other most, on the back of their people.
Attack my city, i'll attack your city, then it's all escalating. Personal ego, no doctrine. Same with advisors, Hitler fired all when the overstrained armies could not live up to his expectations, and took "direct personal command of the military". Was soon over then.

[Jimbuna]

Looking at #17 reminded me of the fact that a few years ago I purchased the book below from the son of the movies music composer, the late Ron Goodwin, bearing the signatures of Sqn Ldr P Day, Mr Ron Goodwin, Mr Mike Vickers, Mr John Blake, Flt Ltd K Wilkinson, Flt Lt T G Pickering and, the author, Robert J Rudhall (authenticating the other signatures included). Just 100 copies have been individually signed and numbered. This one is the Author's Proof (numbered AP/100).

[Catfish]

Very nice ! A good catch

[blackswan40]

Wow ill be Transmogrified slap me in the kisser with a wet kipper thats a very nice piece of movie history have you had it valued Jimbuna thankyou very much for sharing

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Very nice ! A good catch

Cheers

Originally Posted by blackswan40

Wow ill be Transmogrified slap me in the kisser with a wet kipper thats a very nice piece of movie history have you had it valued Jimbuna thankyou very much for sharing

I haven't actually but I don't mind admitting I paid £70

I might look around now that you mention it

[Catfish]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ritish-heroism

[Jimbuna]

^ Both informative and accurate many would say.

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few"