America's Virginia-Class Submarine vs. Russia's Lethal Yasen: Who Wins? - Page 2

jadervason · 10-31-16, 05:00 PM

With only a cursory knowledge of the two vessels, assuming both crews are 110% the advantages are slight either way, with the Virginia as the boat you want to be in before the shooting starts and the Yasen might be the better option once weapons are being traded.

The Yasen has it over the Virginia in a dogfight, speed depth maneuverability and weapons variety and quantity. But the whole design purpose of the Virginia class would seem to be to avoid a dogfight. Sort of like the F-15 vs the Su-27, where the latter is quicker and more maneuverable the former always had better avionics. The Mk48 ADCAP is a truly magnificent torpedo, and Russia's torpedo designs are very far behind it. On paper Russian weapons are wire guided as well as the Mk48 but their fish don't have the speed, endurance or intelligence. For instance a Virginia could guide two Mk48's quietly to bracket a potential target, both from bearings opposite its own position, and then initial the terminal phase.

However! If the Yasen gets wind of the Virginia, that is both detect each other and a fight erupts, with weapons going both ways having a few extra knots and a few extra shots might make a large difference.

As far as sailors, the US has 10x the resources for ASW exercises either within its own fleet or with allies, so I would expect some experience advantage on the Virginia.

oneuhtheeese · 12-21-16, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadervason

As far as sailors, the US has 10x the resources for ASW exercises either within its own fleet or with allies, so I would expect some experience advantage on the Virginia.

Agreed. Virginia would win because the training and resources alone. Even assuming tactical parity of the two platforms, the crew proficiency and weapons employment alone would take out a Severodvinsk.

Sixbreaker · 12-22-16, 03:53 AM

I was in a Virginia Class; Virginia Class WINS! LOL

damn that video gives me the shudder...

ikalugin · 12-22-16, 02:57 PM

I would remind the people here that the sole serving submarine of Yasen class is not representative of the upcomming Yasen class boats for the simple reason of having a different powerplant.

During the 90s we couldn't get the 4th generation powerplant built for the Severodvinsk, hence Severodvinsk has the reactor from the 3rd gen subs.

Kapitan · 12-23-16, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

I would remind the people here that the sole serving submarine of Yasen class is not representative of the upcomming Yasen class boats for the simple reason of having a different powerplant.

During the 90s we couldn't get the 4th generation powerplant built for the Severodvinsk, hence Severodvinsk has the reactor from the 3rd gen subs.

Still using the tried and tested OK-650B i take it

the newer design has more out put plus extended life and refueling cycles so hopefully it gets off the ground pretty sharpish

ikalugin · 12-23-16, 08:19 AM

Yasen did get the new power train, with hybrid electro-mechanical transmission.

Ie at low speeds the submarine is propelled using the electric motor driving the main propeller, with the main turbine and it's gears disconnected.

Kapitan · 12-23-16, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

I would remind the people here that the sole serving submarine of Yasen class is not representative of the upcomming Yasen class boats for the simple reason of having a different powerplant.

During the 90s we couldn't get the 4th generation powerplant built for the Severodvinsk, hence Severodvinsk has the reactor from the 3rd gen subs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Yasen did get the new power train, with hybrid electro-mechanical transmission.

Ie at low speeds the submarine is propelled using the electric motor driving the main propeller, with the main turbine and it's gears disconnected.

That is interesting as that would reduce the signature quite a bit at slow speeds but how long would they need to re engage the gearing if they need to make a run for it ?

im not sure and i doubt it would be confirmed here that the USA France and UK have thought about this system

jadervason · 12-23-16, 09:31 PM

I don't know much about Yasen. But I've heard the turbine/electric propulsion system in question has been considered as a refit for the Ohio class. I don't know more but I'm sure there is information out there.

Historically the reduction gearing between a submarine's reactor's steam turbine and the main propeller shaft has been a major source of emitted sound (we're talking huge amounts of horsepower to transmit) and no small effort has been made in that area to reduce it by as much as possible.

It's worth pointing out that using electric motors for creeping is not a new idea in Soviet/Russian designs but I think this would be the first time more than 3-5 knots is the goal.

Kapitan · 12-24-16, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadervason

I don't know much about Yasen. But I've heard the turbine/electric propulsion system in question has been considered as a refit for the Ohio class. I don't know more but I'm sure there is information out there.

Historically the reduction gearing between a submarine's reactor's steam turbine and the main propeller shaft has been a major source of emitted sound (we're talking huge amounts of horsepower to transmit) and no small effort has been made in that area to reduce it by as much as possible.

It's worth pointing out that using electric motors for creeping is not a new idea in Soviet/Russian designs but I think this would be the first time more than 3-5 knots is the goal.

Yes it is used on the Project 971 and also the 671RTKM boats and i wouldnt be surprised if they were in the Project 667BDRM's also

As for the Project 667BDR's they maybe old but they have some life left albeit very short perhapse scrapping and building a new class or more Project 885M

ikalugin · 12-24-16, 03:23 PM

Quote:

That is interesting as that would reduce the signature quite a bit at slow speeds but how long would they need to re engage the gearing if they need to make a run for it ?

It is just a mechanical disconnecter. If the reactor and turbine are up to speed, then it is not all that long.

@jadervason
@Kapitan
It is not a separate propulsion system like on other subs - it is a powerfull electric motor on the main shaft, much like in SSKs.

Kapitan · 12-24-16, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

It is just a mechanical disconnecter. If the reactor and turbine are up to speed, then it is not all that long.

@jadervason
@Kapitan
It is not a separate propulsion system like on other subs - it is a powerfull electric motor on the main shaft, much like in SSKs.

i am also going to hazard a guess it doesnt use a bank of battery cells to power it either, uses power directly generated from the reactor ?

ikalugin · 12-25-16, 12:21 AM

It normally uses the power from the turbogenerator, yes.

12-22-16, 03:53 AM	#18
Sixbreaker Watch Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 21 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Damn I was in a Virginia Class; Virginia Class WINS! LOL damn that video gives me the shudder...

12-22-16, 02:57 PM	#19
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I would remind the people here that the sole serving submarine of Yasen class is not representative of the upcomming Yasen class boats for the simple reason of having a different powerplant. During the 90s we couldn't get the 4th generation powerplant built for the Severodvinsk, hence Severodvinsk has the reactor from the 3rd gen subs. __________________ Grumpy as always.

12-23-16, 08:19 AM	#21
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Yasen did get the new power train, with hybrid electro-mechanical transmission. Ie at low speeds the submarine is propelled using the electric motor driving the main propeller, with the main turbine and it's gears disconnected. __________________ Grumpy as always.

12-25-16, 12:21 AM	#27
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	It normally uses the power from the turbogenerator, yes. __________________ Grumpy as always.

10-31-16, 05:00 PM	#16
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	With only a cursory knowledge of the two vessels, assuming both crews are 110% the advantages are slight either way, with the Virginia as the boat you want to be in before the shooting starts and the Yasen might be the better option once weapons are being traded. The Yasen has it over the Virginia in a dogfight, speed depth maneuverability and weapons variety and quantity. But the whole design purpose of the Virginia class would seem to be to avoid a dogfight. Sort of like the F-15 vs the Su-27, where the latter is quicker and more maneuverable the former always had better avionics. The Mk48 ADCAP is a truly magnificent torpedo, and Russia's torpedo designs are very far behind it. On paper Russian weapons are wire guided as well as the Mk48 but their fish don't have the speed, endurance or intelligence. For instance a Virginia could guide two Mk48's quietly to bracket a potential target, both from bearings opposite its own position, and then initial the terminal phase. However! If the Yasen gets wind of the Virginia, that is both detect each other and a fight erupts, with weapons going both ways having a few extra knots and a few extra shots might make a large difference. As far as sailors, the US has 10x the resources for ASW exercises either within its own fleet or with allies, so I would expect some experience advantage on the Virginia.

12-23-16, 09:31 PM	#23
jadervason Bosun Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 69 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I don't know much about Yasen. But I've heard the turbine/electric propulsion system in question has been considered as a refit for the Ohio class. I don't know more but I'm sure there is information out there. Historically the reduction gearing between a submarine's reactor's steam turbine and the main propeller shaft has been a major source of emitted sound (we're talking huge amounts of horsepower to transmit) and no small effort has been made in that area to reduce it by as much as possible. It's worth pointing out that using electric motors for creeping is not a new idea in Soviet/Russian designs but I think this would be the first time more than 3-5 knots is the goal.