A question about Authoritarianism - Page 2

mapuc · 07-22-15, 07:01 PM

Thank you Platapus

If I understand your comment correctly it is not that the American people who are more anti-authoritan than other people, it is more the police who have become more anti-serve and protect.
(not every police)

Markus

Jeff-Groves · 07-22-15, 07:21 PM

Until recently? The police were getting Military grade hardware handed to them.
By what I see? They took to Military Tactics and mentality to justify the equipment.
It's no longer Serve and Protect the public.
It's Serve and Protect our interests.
Interests being the Police themselves.

I am highly suspicious of even the Local LEO now.
Where a few years ago I considered them friends.
I've seen the ones I trusted quit the forces over things like this.

vienna · 07-22-15, 08:09 PM

The whole militarization has been going on for almost 50 years. It all started with SWAT teams:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT

The initial purpose was acceptable: highly trained, well armed and equipped police teams to deal with the most violent criminal situations. However, it has morphed into the more commonplace rather than the more extraordinary. The whole SWAT idea was glamorized and mythologized once Hollywood started making TV shows like "S.W.A.T.", based on the Los Angeles Police Department's (LAPD) own SWAT team. The militarization grew into a full paramilitary organization with the whole-hearted endorsement of the LAPD top brass, most notably former LAPD Chief Daryl Gates, who parlayed the unit into his own cottage industry with a line of video games, books, etc. Gates lost his job as LAPD Chief following the leadership debacle that occurred during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots. But his profiteering continued and his legacy of the "Hollywood" SWAT image inspired other US police departments to follow suit in organizing their own teams...

There is a need for such specially trained teams, but their use must be judicious. Here in LA, it is almost routine to see SWAT teams called out for some of the most mundane of crime scenes. In addition, the department has taken to equipping normal patrol officers in some of the military-style equipment formerly used only by the swat teams. A retired LAPD officer I used to know once remarked to me that the whole up scaling of patrol equipment owed more to envy than need by the patrol officers...

Some of the upgrading was an obvious necessity, particularly after the infamous "North Hollywood Shootout" in 1997:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

It became rather more than obvious police-issue revolvers were of little use against a criminal element armed with semi- and full automatic weapons and high velocity rounds. For situations like this, there is a need for SWAT teams; however, as pointed out, the use of SWAT teams has become the equivalent, in everyday life, of using a shotgun to kill a fly...

The same retired LAPD officer also speculated to me he felt there was also a bit of envy among US cops when they saw foreign police officers (Europe, Israel, Asia, etc.) on the news fitted out with all manner of military gear; it was sort of "I want one, too!" boyish envy. There has to be a limit to what is appropriate and what is simply some police department's need to live out their GI Joe fantasies...

<O>

Onkel Neal · 07-22-15, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Earlier today the news showed us a video clip from USA

The video showed a car stopped by a police. The police standing beside the car on the drivers side-saying "Shall I use the "Stunner"(forgot the correct word) Later on this women hang her self in her cell.

A friend made a post about this on FB. and here he wrote.

"I agree that this policeman was to brutal in his acting, but why didn't this woman do what she was told ?"

I wondered when I read that. Are the American less Authoritarianism than we in Denmark and Sweden.

Heck here in Denmark or Sweden a person stat to jump up and down when the police gives the order to do so-most of them do.

Markus

A question about Authoritarianism
The title of this thread seems very misleading.

Sailor Steve · 07-22-15, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

...it is more the police who have become more anti-serve and protect.

Actually the police have become better, not worse. You might not know that until 1940s it was not uncommon for police to beat and torture suspects, and confessions obtained with those methods were upheld in court.
http://news.findlaw.com/court_tv/s/2...002122233.html

Yes, there are bad cops who do bad things, but on the whole this is much less common than it used to be.

As far as Americans being pro-or-anti-authoritarianism, there are always individuals who believe in one extreme or the other, but for the most part we like our cops to leave their opinions at home and do the job by the book. It's funny, but most of the cops I've ever had dealings with were good people and left me with a good experience.

On the other hand, I'm not black.

Stealhead · 07-22-15, 10:00 PM

Probably the worst thing for law enforcement honestly was the automobile. Once they became the standard tool the officers became separated from the people they are supposed to to help. How can you trust a person you never interact with?

In the old day the beat cops where trusted by the people in their precinct because they mainly walked around on foot and got to know personally many people you can trust a person like that both ways.

Today it depends on the attitude of the officer and some do have too much of a "us vs them" mentality. A good officer should very rarely have to resort to using physical force.

The whole ID thing dose bug me it wasn't like that pre 9\11 now they check IDs like it is going out of style. Get pulled over for anything and they want every adult in the vehicles ID. I don't agree with that the driver sure but what business is it from a legal standpoint for the officer to see the person riding shotgun? None in truth.

Jeff-Groves · 07-22-15, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

It's funny, but most of the cops I've ever had dealings with were good people and left me with a good experience.

On the other hand, I'm not black.

Wow. I did not expect that to end an other wise good post.
I am for the first time this year baffled.

Sailor Steve · 07-22-15, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Wow. I did not expect that to end an other wise good post.
I am for the first time this year baffled.

My interactions with police have mostly been good. Other people have had other experiences. It looks like a majority of victims of police brutality have been black. A lot of them would disagree with my summation. I can only speak to my own experience.

Schroeder · 07-23-15, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vienna

The same retired LAPD officer also speculated to me he felt there was also a bit of envy among US cops when they saw foreign police officers (Europe, Israel, Asia, etc.) on the news fitted out with all manner of military gear; it was sort of "I want one, too!" boyish envy. There has to be a limit to what is appropriate and what is simply some police department's need to live out their GI Joe fantasies...

I've never seen police officers in Europe outside of special units being equipped with military grade weapons. Our regular police forces don't even have rifles and are just equipped with 9mm handguns. Federal police at airports and train stations can occasionally be seen with a MP5 but I believe that's only if there was a warning about an immediate threat. So I don't believe we inspired that.

This is now just pure speculation on my part but I rather think that they don't want to be out gunned by thugs. If everyone can legally obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm. You see it works both ways, a lot of US citizens claim they need assault rifles to protect themselves from the state while the police probably thinks they have to upgrade to stay on one level with the population. I think it's an internal arms race.

Rockstar · 07-23-15, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

This is now just pure speculation on my part but I rather think that they don't want to be out gunned by thugs. If everyone can legally obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm. You see it works both ways, a lot of US citizens claim they need assault rifles to protect themselves from the state while the police probably thinks they have to upgrade to stay on one level with the population. I think it's an internal arms race.

I think you hit the nail on the head. April 11th 1986 Miami, FL was the turning point for law enforcement wanting bigger and better.

Wolferz · 07-23-15, 08:53 AM

Quote:

This is now just pure speculation on my part but I rather think that they don't want to be out gunned by thugs. If everyone can legally obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm. You see it works both ways, a lot of US citizens claim they need assault rifles to protect themselves from the state while the police probably thinks they have to upgrade to stay on one level with the population. I think it's an internal arms race.

As a general rule, thugs don't obtain assault weapons legally in this country. Thugs who do have them and decide to use them can expect an aggressive visit from a SWAT team.
Unfortunately, there are far too many departments that are utilizing their SWAT teams for more mundane tasks like serving arrest warrants. Too often these teams show up in trigger happy mode, bust down a door and shoot anything that moves with their assault weapons. That's not a bad thing if they're at the right address.

If they're at the wrong house, it's best not to be lounging on your sofa with your hand tucked in the waistband of your skivvies or your trousers.

Schroeder · 07-23-15, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolferz

As a general rule, thugs don't obtain assault weapons legally in this country.

Let me rephrase that: If everyone can obtain an AR 15 and the like then I'm sure officers don't want to be limited to a 9mm.

P.S.
Why can't I use the strike through code [s]text[/s] on this forum?

mapuc · 07-23-15, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

A question about Authoritarianism
The title of this thread seems very misleading.

I know I couldn't find a better words

In danish it is called autoritetstro(Google translate)=Authoritarianism/authoritarian. There was also orthodox and some other words I thought they didn't fit in this discussion.

I also know Authoritarianism/authoritarian is far more than your police, it is the Firefighters a.s.o

My question was if the ordinary American is less authority than their Danish counterpart when it comes to the police.

And my Question was because of a friends comment on FB.

If any have thought my post is somehow negative against the American it is not-It's just a simple question about the ordinary Americans mentality to wards the Police force in USA.

Do you do exactly every thing the police say you shall do ?

Here a huge majority would do what the police order them to do.

Or there aren't any survey about this subject, so no one really know.

mapuc · 07-23-15, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually the police have become better, not worse. You might not know that until 1940s it was not uncommon for police to beat and torture suspects, and confessions obtained with those methods were upheld in court.
http://news.findlaw.com/court_tv/s/2...002122233.html

Yes, there are bad cops who do bad things, but on the whole this is much less common than it used to be.

As far as Americans being pro-or-anti-authoritarianism, there are always individuals who believe in one extreme or the other, but for the most part we like our cops to leave their opinions at home and do the job by the book. It's funny, but most of the cops I've ever had dealings with were good people and left me with a good experience.

On the other hand, I'm not black.

Only in these old gangster movies. Now I have learned something new-thank you.

I remember an old episode of Kojak, In the start of the episode there were a text saying something like this
"This episode is....realistic and is about when USA got the "you ahve the right to be silence, every thing you say a.s.o)

Markus

Oberon · 07-23-15, 12:48 PM

I think it would not be easy to find the right word to this question without inflaming opinion. Some people might say that Americans are less submissive than Europeans, but then that sounds like an insult to Europeans, but I think that by definition the US is less inclined to trust authority figures because of the rebellion against the 'tyrannical authority' of the UK.
Primarily though this mistrust is focused towards governance rather than law enforcement, the average American is likely to be more sympathetic towards a policeman than a politician, and most presidents are generally distrusted by whoever has the opposing viewpoint, sometimes to extremes.
Since the 1960s though, distrust of the police has increased, not just in the US but UK too, I think it started as an offshoot of the distrust of authoritarian figures, with the youth movement and it spread to their children and onwards. The police became seen less as your local neighbourhood 'Bobby' (or Officer McFriendly in the US) and more as the military arm of 'the establishment', the clashes between police/the Guard and anti-war protesters in the late sixties probably helped cement that reputation, especially with things like the Kent State shootings.
From there, really, the distrust of the police continued, with the polices reputation being damaged by incidents with the black community in the US and in the UK with corruption scandals and not really recovering from it.
It's a pity really, since it's the minority that ruin it for the majority, but in the media these days it's the minority who are focused on, to the detriment of the majority. That being said, if there wasn't some focus on the rotton parts then they'd be getting away with it, but it's finding the balance between getting rid of corruption within the force but not discrediting the entire force whilst doing so.

07-22-15, 08:09 PM	#18
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,718 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The whole militarization has been going on for almost 50 years. It all started with SWAT teams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT The initial purpose was acceptable: highly trained, well armed and equipped police teams to deal with the most violent criminal situations. However, it has morphed into the more commonplace rather than the more extraordinary. The whole SWAT idea was glamorized and mythologized once Hollywood started making TV shows like "S.W.A.T.", based on the Los Angeles Police Department's (LAPD) own SWAT team. The militarization grew into a full paramilitary organization with the whole-hearted endorsement of the LAPD top brass, most notably former LAPD Chief Daryl Gates, who parlayed the unit into his own cottage industry with a line of video games, books, etc. Gates lost his job as LAPD Chief following the leadership debacle that occurred during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots. But his profiteering continued and his legacy of the "Hollywood" SWAT image inspired other US police departments to follow suit in organizing their own teams... There is a need for such specially trained teams, but their use must be judicious. Here in LA, it is almost routine to see SWAT teams called out for some of the most mundane of crime scenes. In addition, the department has taken to equipping normal patrol officers in some of the military-style equipment formerly used only by the swat teams. A retired LAPD officer I used to know once remarked to me that the whole up scaling of patrol equipment owed more to envy than need by the patrol officers... Some of the upgrading was an obvious necessity, particularly after the infamous "North Hollywood Shootout" in 1997: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout It became rather more than obvious police-issue revolvers were of little use against a criminal element armed with semi- and full automatic weapons and high velocity rounds. For situations like this, there is a need for SWAT teams; however, as pointed out, the use of SWAT teams has become the equivalent, in everyday life, of using a shotgun to kill a fly... The same retired LAPD officer also speculated to me he felt there was also a bit of envy among US cops when they saw foreign police officers (Europe, Israel, Asia, etc.) on the news fitted out with all manner of military gear; it was sort of "I want one, too!" boyish envy. There has to be a limit to what is appropriate and what is simply some police department's need to live out their GI Joe fantasies... <O> __________________ __________________________________________________ __

07-22-15, 07:01 PM	#16
mapuc CINC Pacific Fleet Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 20,543 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Thank you Platapus If I understand your comment correctly it is not that the American people who are more anti-authoritan than other people, it is more the police who have become more anti-serve and protect. (not every police) Markus

07-22-15, 07:21 PM	#17
Jeff-Groves GLOBAL MODDING TERRORIST Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 5,654 Downloads: 137 Uploads: 0	Until recently? The police were getting Military grade hardware handed to them. By what I see? They took to Military Tactics and mentality to justify the equipment. It's no longer Serve and Protect the public. It's Serve and Protect our interests. Interests being the Police themselves. I am highly suspicious of even the Local LEO now. Where a few years ago I considered them friends. I've seen the ones I trusted quit the forces over things like this.

07-22-15, 10:00 PM	#21
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Probably the worst thing for law enforcement honestly was the automobile. Once they became the standard tool the officers became separated from the people they are supposed to to help. How can you trust a person you never interact with? In the old day the beat cops where trusted by the people in their precinct because they mainly walked around on foot and got to know personally many people you can trust a person like that both ways. Today it depends on the attitude of the officer and some do have too much of a "us vs them" mentality. A good officer should very rarely have to resort to using physical force. The whole ID thing dose bug me it wasn't like that pre 9\11 now they check IDs like it is going out of style. Get pulled over for anything and they want every adult in the vehicles ID. I don't agree with that the driver sure but what business is it from a legal standpoint for the officer to see the person riding shotgun? None in truth.

07-23-15, 12:48 PM	#30
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	I think it would not be easy to find the right word to this question without inflaming opinion. Some people might say that Americans are less submissive than Europeans, but then that sounds like an insult to Europeans, but I think that by definition the US is less inclined to trust authority figures because of the rebellion against the 'tyrannical authority' of the UK. Primarily though this mistrust is focused towards governance rather than law enforcement, the average American is likely to be more sympathetic towards a policeman than a politician, and most presidents are generally distrusted by whoever has the opposing viewpoint, sometimes to extremes. Since the 1960s though, distrust of the police has increased, not just in the US but UK too, I think it started as an offshoot of the distrust of authoritarian figures, with the youth movement and it spread to their children and onwards. The police became seen less as your local neighbourhood 'Bobby' (or Officer McFriendly in the US) and more as the military arm of 'the establishment', the clashes between police/the Guard and anti-war protesters in the late sixties probably helped cement that reputation, especially with things like the Kent State shootings. From there, really, the distrust of the police continued, with the polices reputation being damaged by incidents with the black community in the US and in the UK with corruption scandals and not really recovering from it. It's a pity really, since it's the minority that ruin it for the majority, but in the media these days it's the minority who are focused on, to the detriment of the majority. That being said, if there wasn't some focus on the rotton parts then they'd be getting away with it, but it's finding the balance between getting rid of corruption within the force but not discrediting the entire force whilst doing so.