Underwater range and endurance - Page 2

ETR3(SS) · 02-22-14, 07:07 PM

The problem with the recharge times and endurance has to do with the speed you travel at. I don't recall the exact speed offhand but traveling at less than that speed will drain the batteries faster than if you were traveling faster than speed X. Adjusting the range at speed endurance typically results is longer recharge times. In short, you're chasing a ghost. The problem is in a part of the game that we don't have access to.

Sniper297 · 02-22-14, 11:51 PM

"...what does it do with 2 miles and 96 knots?"

Something similar to 0.5 miles and 90 knots, about 62-63 miles and about 20-30 hours recharge time.

ETR3, I did try the speed control dial, set 1 knot, 2 knots, 4 knots, all result in less range than the default 3 knots I get with ahead 1/3rd on the standard engine telegraph control.

Curious, I was an AX which is also an electronics rate, but the BEEP school at NAS Memphis was overcrowded so the sent a bunch of us to BEEP at SSC/NTC San Diego. Did you go to BEEP there, and where was your A school?

ETR3(SS) · 02-23-14, 07:19 AM

Not sure what BEEP is offhand, but I was a striker and struck radio after trying for STS which was a waste of time. I didn't go to A school but it would've been back in Groton, CT with the rest of the A schools except for MT and nuc. C school would've been in Bangor, WA for the Trident Radio Room setup. Think the pipeline was about a year/ year and a half.

Sniper297 · 02-23-14, 12:02 PM

BEEP = Basic Electricity and Electronics Preparation. When I was active there were two, one at NTC San Diego for all the blackshoes and the other at NAS Memphis for airdales. Most of those bases are closed these days, and of course this;

Was retired long ago, replaced by the SH-60.

ETR3(SS) · 02-23-14, 01:14 PM

Ah ok. We had SECF which was a common intro for all the "T" rates and then you would branch off from there to your specific rate. SH-3 right? For all the training we did for ASW assets helos never figured prominently into it. P-3's on the other hand was drilled into us.

Sniper297 · 02-24-14, 08:57 PM

Yep, the Orion crews used to call our Sea Kings "Winnebagos", but I didn't take offense since they were right - I got a few rides in P-3s and it's like comparing a Volkswagen Beetle to a Rolls Royce limo. Smooth ride, no vibration, lots of room inside. The standard joke was that a helicopter was 1000 mismatched parts flying in close formation around an oil leak while waiting for metal fatigue to set in.
But then again, a P-3 can't hover or land on a ship.

Forgot some other tests, working on those when I'm not tearing my hair out trying to figure out the texture mapping on these blasted subs. All Stop, Ahead 1/3rd, Ahead 2/3rds, Ahead Standard all have the same recharge rate, about 6 hours. Ahead Full takes 11 hours, Ahead Flank 22 hours. Discharge is keyed to speed rather than power, running at Ahead Flank, diving, then going to All Stop the battery continues to drain while the sub is coasting. 9 knots submerged you get 10 miles in a little over an hour before the battery drops to 10%, and the speed is down to 4 knots.

Sniper297 · 10-28-14, 06:03 PM

Well, after modding a Sargo to run at a max of 12 knots submerged I found that flank speed wasn't draining the battery nearly as fast as I thought it should, and running all ahead standard actually drained the battery faster than flank and decreased the range. Fiddled with the numbers again;

miles = 2
knots = 25

Then ran some tests;

5 1/2 hour recharge from 10%

2 knots (1/3rd)
70 miles

5 knots (2/3rd)
37 miles

8 knots (Standard)
16 miles

10 knots (Full)
51 miles

12 knots (Flank)
47 miles

The first three make perfect sense, increase from 2 to 5 knots cuts the range almost in half, increase to 8 knots less than a quarter, but then 10 knots INCREASES the range, and flank is better than 2/3rds. There must be other files and/or data factored in here, horsepower and/or drag possibly.

TorpX · 10-28-14, 07:31 PM

I can't say just why you would get these kind of wonky results, but there is direct relationship between eng_power and drag.

If you have a sub with a eng_power of 1000 and a max speed of 10 there is a certain drag force at 10 knots. If you increase the eng_power to 2000, the drag will be greater. If you decrease it to 500, the drag goes down. There is no useable variable for drag. IOW, the game mechanics presume the vessel can reach the max speed specified, with the power specified, and adjusts the drag forces to fit.

The only other thing I can think of that might cause the odd results, is the Is_DieselElectric = True. If you changed that, it might mess things up.

I never tried making arbitrary changes to the surface eng_power, but the ratio between the surface and submerged eng_power values might be involved here.

Sniper297 · 10-28-14, 09:55 PM

One interesting item, the CFG file;

[Unit]
ClassName=SSSargo
3DModelFileName=data/Submarine/NSS_Sargo/NSS_Sargo
HumanPlayable=YES
Interior=data/Interior/NSS_Salmon/NSS_Salmon
UnitType=200
MaxSpeed=2
MaxSpeedSubmerged=1
Length=94.6404
Width=8.1788
RenownAwarded=130

The percentages at the bottom;

[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.20
AheadOneThird=0.40
AheadStandard=0.62
AheadFull=0.85
AheadFlank=1.00
BackSlow=-0.26
BackStandard=-0.40
BackFull=-0.53
BackEmergency=-0.66

Are applied to both surfaced and submerged speeds, but the max speeds at the top are not used in game - those come only from the SIM file, change the speeds in the CFG to whatever and it has no effect.

In the sim file I have;

Propulsion
Max speed = 25
Max force = 0.0
eng power = 6140
eng rpm = 280

E propulsion
Max speed = 12
eng power = 2660
eng rpm = 270

Power and RPM are default, the only thing I changed was the max speed.

For the submerged range I just now tried;

miles = 4
knots = 15

3 1/2 hour recharge from 10%

2 knots
68 miles

5 knots
34 miles

7 knots
20 miles

10 knots
34 miles

12 knots
30 miles

Really odd that whatever you do has more effect on the recharge time than anything else, and why the range for 5 knots and 10 knots are the same is completely baffling.

Only drag I can find is up/down and left/right, no idea what that applies to - induced drag fore and aft will increase with speed and would not drop off except with a planing hull (or hydrofoil), which certainly doesn't apply to a WWII submarine - especially when submerged. But the increase in range from Standard to Full speed seems to be more or less consistent.

Sniper297 · 10-28-14, 11:27 PM

Gets more bizarre by the minute. Restored the original file;

miles=96
knots=2

Then started playing with the e propulsion;

eng power = 2740
eng rpm = 270

Increase either one and it reduces the range, decrease and it increases the range;

eng power = 740
eng rpm = 70

That results in 130 miles at 2 knots and recharge from 10% in one hour. What I'm shooting for here is about 90-100 miles at 2 knots and 6 to 8 hours recharge time from 10%, but near as I can tell there's no way to affect the range without also affecting the recharge time.

02-22-14, 07:07 PM	#16
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	The problem with the recharge times and endurance has to do with the speed you travel at. I don't recall the exact speed offhand but traveling at less than that speed will drain the batteries faster than if you were traveling faster than speed X. Adjusting the range at speed endurance typically results is longer recharge times. In short, you're chasing a ghost. The problem is in a part of the game that we don't have access to. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

02-23-14, 07:19 AM	#18
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	Not sure what BEEP is offhand, but I was a striker and struck radio after trying for STS which was a waste of time. I didn't go to A school but it would've been back in Groton, CT with the rest of the A schools except for MT and nuc. C school would've been in Bangor, WA for the Trident Radio Room setup. Think the pipeline was about a year/ year and a half. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

02-23-14, 01:14 PM	#20
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	Ah ok. We had SECF which was a common intro for all the "T" rates and then you would branch off from there to your specific rate. SH-3 right? For all the training we did for ASW assets helos never figured prominently into it. P-3's on the other hand was drilled into us. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

10-28-14, 07:31 PM	#23
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	I can't say just why you would get these kind of wonky results, but there is direct relationship between eng_power and drag. If you have a sub with a eng_power of 1000 and a max speed of 10 there is a certain drag force at 10 knots. If you increase the eng_power to 2000, the drag will be greater. If you decrease it to 500, the drag goes down. There is no useable variable for drag. IOW, the game mechanics presume the vessel can reach the max speed specified, with the power specified, and adjusts the drag forces to fit. The only other thing I can think of that might cause the odd results, is the Is_DieselElectric = True. If you changed that, it might mess things up. I never tried making arbitrary changes to the surface eng_power, but the ratio between the surface and submerged eng_power values might be involved here.

10-28-14, 09:55 PM	#24
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Hmmmmm One interesting item, the CFG file; [Unit] ClassName=SSSargo 3DModelFileName=data/Submarine/NSS_Sargo/NSS_Sargo HumanPlayable=YES Interior=data/Interior/NSS_Salmon/NSS_Salmon UnitType=200 MaxSpeed=2 MaxSpeedSubmerged=1 Length=94.6404 Width=8.1788 RenownAwarded=130 The percentages at the bottom; [EngineProperties] AllStop=0.00 AheadSlow=0.20 AheadOneThird=0.40 AheadStandard=0.62 AheadFull=0.85 AheadFlank=1.00 BackSlow=-0.26 BackStandard=-0.40 BackFull=-0.53 BackEmergency=-0.66 Are applied to both surfaced and submerged speeds, but the max speeds at the top are not used in game - those come only from the SIM file, change the speeds in the CFG to whatever and it has no effect. In the sim file I have; Propulsion Max speed = 25 Max force = 0.0 eng power = 6140 eng rpm = 280 E propulsion Max speed = 12 eng power = 2660 eng rpm = 270 Power and RPM are default, the only thing I changed was the max speed. For the submerged range I just now tried; miles = 4 knots = 15 3 1/2 hour recharge from 10% 2 knots 68 miles 5 knots 34 miles 7 knots 20 miles 10 knots 34 miles 12 knots 30 miles Really odd that whatever you do has more effect on the recharge time than anything else, and why the range for 5 knots and 10 knots are the same is completely baffling. Only drag I can find is up/down and left/right, no idea what that applies to - induced drag fore and aft will increase with speed and would not drop off except with a planing hull (or hydrofoil), which certainly doesn't apply to a WWII submarine - especially when submerged. But the increase in range from Standard to Full speed seems to be more or less consistent.

02-22-14, 11:51 PM	#17
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	"...what does it do with 2 miles and 96 knots?" Something similar to 0.5 miles and 90 knots, about 62-63 miles and about 20-30 hours recharge time. ETR3, I did try the speed control dial, set 1 knot, 2 knots, 4 knots, all result in less range than the default 3 knots I get with ahead 1/3rd on the standard engine telegraph control. Curious, I was an AX which is also an electronics rate, but the BEEP school at NAS Memphis was overcrowded so the sent a bunch of us to BEEP at SSC/NTC San Diego. Did you go to BEEP there, and where was your A school?

02-23-14, 12:02 PM	#19
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	BEEP = Basic Electricity and Electronics Preparation. When I was active there were two, one at NTC San Diego for all the blackshoes and the other at NAS Memphis for airdales. Most of those bases are closed these days, and of course this; Was retired long ago, replaced by the SH-60.

02-24-14, 08:57 PM	#21
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Yep, the Orion crews used to call our Sea Kings "Winnebagos", but I didn't take offense since they were right - I got a few rides in P-3s and it's like comparing a Volkswagen Beetle to a Rolls Royce limo. Smooth ride, no vibration, lots of room inside. The standard joke was that a helicopter was 1000 mismatched parts flying in close formation around an oil leak while waiting for metal fatigue to set in. But then again, a P-3 can't hover or land on a ship. Forgot some other tests, working on those when I'm not tearing my hair out trying to figure out the texture mapping on these blasted subs. All Stop, Ahead 1/3rd, Ahead 2/3rds, Ahead Standard all have the same recharge rate, about 6 hours. Ahead Full takes 11 hours, Ahead Flank 22 hours. Discharge is keyed to speed rather than power, running at Ahead Flank, diving, then going to All Stop the battery continues to drain while the sub is coasting. 9 knots submerged you get 10 miles in a little over an hour before the battery drops to 10%, and the speed is down to 4 knots.

10-28-14, 06:03 PM	#22
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Well, after modding a Sargo to run at a max of 12 knots submerged I found that flank speed wasn't draining the battery nearly as fast as I thought it should, and running all ahead standard actually drained the battery faster than flank and decreased the range. Fiddled with the numbers again; miles = 2 knots = 25 Then ran some tests; 5 1/2 hour recharge from 10% 2 knots (1/3rd) 70 miles 5 knots (2/3rd) 37 miles 8 knots (Standard) 16 miles 10 knots (Full) 51 miles 12 knots (Flank) 47 miles The first three make perfect sense, increase from 2 to 5 knots cuts the range almost in half, increase to 8 knots less than a quarter, but then 10 knots INCREASES the range, and flank is better than 2/3rds. There must be other files and/or data factored in here, horsepower and/or drag possibly.

10-28-14, 11:27 PM	#25
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Gets more bizarre by the minute. Restored the original file; miles=96 knots=2 Then started playing with the e propulsion; eng power = 2740 eng rpm = 270 Increase either one and it reduces the range, decrease and it increases the range; eng power = 740 eng rpm = 70 That results in 130 miles at 2 knots and recharge from 10% in one hour. What I'm shooting for here is about 90-100 miles at 2 knots and 6 to 8 hours recharge time from 10%, but near as I can tell there's no way to affect the range without also affecting the recharge time.