Drummer Lee Rigby killer appeals

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Well, I think that varies from person to person. My Mum once got a pamphlet from a Muslim which had a quote saying 'If a Muslim sees a Hindu in danger and does not help him, I will no longer consider that man my brother'. But I do agree with you to an extent. It certainly does seem that there are more Islamic extremists than in many other religions. The most notorious Christian extremists, Westboro Baptist Church, just whine about homosexuality, while Muslim extremists have killed thousands.

I think that's because most people in the west don't really care about religion any more, if this had taken place 1000 years ago we'd be having this conversation over a dead Muslim somewhere in Jerusalem, but we moved on, advanced socially and technologically, and expected the rest of the world to catch up to us, some did, some didn't.
I'd wager that in another 1000 years, religion will be completely different to how it's practiced now, heck, it might even be banned under an atheist government, who can say? But Christanity has just as much blood on its hands as Islam, and most of the other religions, because at the end of the day the religion is just an excuse used by people to kill other people, and there's no shortage of other reasons to use if you don't want to use religion.

[Admiral Lutjens]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Well, I think that varies from person to person. My Mum once got a pamphlet from a Muslim which had a quote saying 'If a Muslim sees a Hindu in danger and does not help him, I will no longer consider that man my brother'. But I do agree with you to an extent. It certainly does seem that there are more Islamic extremists than in many other religions. The most notorious Christian extremists, Westboro Baptist Church, just whine about homosexuality, while Muslim extremists have killed thousands.

Originally Posted by TarJak

Almost all religions and ideologies are intolerant in some form.

What's your definition of Western Civilised society? To some Saudi Arabia is a "Western civilised society".

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think that's because most people in the west don't really care about religion any more, if this had taken place 1000 years ago we'd be having this conversation over a dead Muslim somewhere in Jerusalem, but we moved on, advanced socially and technologically, and expected the rest of the world to catch up to us, some did, some didn't.
I'd wager that in another 1000 years, religion will be completely different to how it's practiced now, heck, it might even be banned under an atheist government, who can say? But Christanity has just as much blood on its hands as Islam, and most of the other religions, because at the end of the day the religion is just an excuse used by people to kill other people, and there's no shortage of other reasons to use if you don't want to use religion.

I agree that not all Muslims are onethesame, but nevertheless it is an outdated, surreal mindset where in what seems to be far more cases than not, a complete intolerance for anything other than Islam. In this country, there's a political ideology that is for things such as atheism/secularism and gay/women's rights and such whom disparage Christians and other religions with the sole exception of Islam because they're 'misunderstood and persecuted'.

The funny thing is, with Turkey being one of the few exceptions, in other Muslim countries, there are NO gay rights and few women's rights. Gays are executed and women are treated as property, which seems very hypocritical to me in regards to the aforementioned ideology. Christians don't do any of the such, but we welcome those folks here and then they insist we respect their illogical and incompatible thinking? That doesn't sit well with me. I've been in several Muslim countries and have seen a lot of this with my own eyes...if I went there and started preaching that they had to be tolerant of my Christian beliefs, I'd be thrown in the stockade or worse.

Christianity indeed does have blood on its hands, but the crusades were centuries ago, and religious growth abroad petered out in the successive centuries. Islam, on the other hand, is spreading rapidly throughout Europe and the West due to social programs and the West's tolerance. It's also spreading into areas that have had traditional religions such as Buddhism for thousands of years and causing serious conflicts.

If there's a hot spot in the world, more than likely it's because of Islam. I truly feel Islam is one the greatest dangers posed to civilized society today and in the future. It will not stop until it has infiltrated every society from within and uniting the world under a flag of Sharia law.

I've been to Saudi Arabia, and it's a fundamentalist society with no other rule of law than Sharia law. Sharia Law is incompatible with American society because it goes against our constitution. I'm not certain about you folks down under, but as for here...it's inherently dangerous. No religion in the world has more blood on its hands than Islam, and you can take that to the bank.

[TarJak]

So you're either unaware of or ignoring the pogroms and the Spanish Inquisition all actions initiated in the name of Christianity and with death tolls far in excess anything Islamic.

Can you quote numbers to substantiate your take to the bank claim?

Or are you only talking about modern history in which case you may not have heard of the past two centuries of European warfare which was in part religiously motivated particularly that little scrap we call WW2. Or the 400 odd intervening years of interdenominational warfare.

Don't get me started on Iraq or Afghanistan...

Your bank balance is looking slim.

[Oberon]

The Thirty Years War and the French Wars of Religion called, they would like a word...

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Commence operation torch and pitchfork!

Actually this thread isn't so bad for it.

Originally Posted by Lutjens

Gays are executed and women are treated as property, which seems very hypocritical to me in regards to the aforementioned ideology. Christians don't do any of the such

Not quite.

EDIT - Wrong link!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/wo...-law.html?_r=0

[Admiral Lutjens]

Originally Posted by TarJak

So you're either unaware of or ignoring the pogroms and the Spanish Inquisition all actions initiated in the name of Christianity and with death tolls far in excess anything Islamic.

Can you quote numbers to substantiate your take to the bank claim?

Or are you only talking about modern history in which case you may not have heard of the past two centuries of European warfare which was in part religiously motivated particularly that little scrap we call WW2. Or the 400 odd intervening years of interdenominational warfare.

Don't get me started on Iraq or Afghanistan...

Your bank balance is looking slim.

Originally Posted by Oberon

The Thirty Years War and the French Wars of Religion called, they would like a word...

I'm aware of the Spanish Inquisition and Louis XIV-esque religious wars. When the last of the Papal States fell in the latter part of the 19th century, that pretty much brought an end to the era of religious statehood and expansion in Europe, combined with the HRE going away.

With respect, mate, you're missing what I'm saying. Note I pointed out that Christian religious aggression petered out over the successive centuries to now, particularly after the New World took shape, where's it's almost non-existent. As opposed to Islam, which has always spread like a cancer. What I'm getting at is that (the vast, vast majority of) Christians no longer force their beliefs on others, let alone butcher those that are of different mindsets. A lot moreso in first world countries, than third world countries where pretty much anything goes anyhow.

I've SERVED in Iraq (with some Aussies I might add, swell fellows! ), so again I've seen it with my own eyes. Islam is severely intolerant of Christians hence why Chaldeans and coptic Christians have been persecuted and killed for hundreds of years (See current conflicts in Libya, Egypt, and Syria). Conflicts such as the situation in Ireland/Northern Ireland began as mostly a religious conflict, but over the decades it's morphed into a national pride struggle and religion is an afterthought.

You didn't see Christians stringing people up on crosses like the Ottomans did to the Orthodox Armenians in the beginning of the 20th century. Ataturk wanted a western, secularized albeit still Muslim Turkish society, and that's what he succeeded in doing, up until now with Erdogan and others starting to more and more embrace traditionalist Islam stance and that's not good news.

WW1 was a powderkeg because why? Christian/Muslim relations in addition to other localized issues which culminated in the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. WW2's origins had nothing to do with religion, so I'm not certain where you're getting that from.

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Actually this thread isn't so bad for it.




Not quite.

EDIT - Wrong link!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/wo...-law.html?_r=0

Okay? Comparing a third world, semi-civilized, chaotic country like that to places such as the US, Britain, Australia....these people would never do anything like that anymore. That stuff went away generations ago.

But, things like THIS disturb me...and reinforce my earlier point. Islam is a cancer, and an idealogy stuck in the 7th century whereas Christianity and Judaism have all evolved and continue to evolve with time.

I'll just leave this here...

[TarJak]

No religion in the world has more blood on its hands than Islam, and you can take that to the bank.

Then you're ignoring the numbers. I'm not great defender of Islam, neither am I a defender of any religion. They are all as insidious as one another and to say that Islam has more blood on its hands than any other is patently ridiculous. The facts do not support your claim.

Christian aggression may have morphed over the years, as it has with many religious aggression, but is still alive and well in many parts of the world including the US, Britain and yes even here is Australia.

If you think Northern Ireland's religious division has dissipated, you may want to look a little deeper into facts surrounding that conflict.

There are several million people murdered in an industrial manner during WWII who may disagree with your assertion that WWII had no nothing to do with religion. Were you aware of the Croation extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope? In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Between 1942 and 1944 its estimated that between 300,000 and 500,000 were murdered in these camps. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them.

Iraq and Afghanistan are both not much more than current day Crusades with "Christian" countries forcing their way into "Islamic" countries and determining how they will be governed.

As to your Turkish example, what is different between that and the KKK's activities? Strange fruit indeed.

In terms of tolerance, your words belie a distinct intolerance, particularly towards Islam, though you are not specific about which branch of Islam you are talking about, Sufi, Shia sunni or Kaffir. That may or may not be due to your first hand experience in Iraq and Saudi, but the lack of tolerance is distinct in what you've written.

I myself, am very intolerant of ignorance.

Back OT, regardless of the killer's religious background, they are simply murderer's who in the eyes of the law are guilty. The appeal should it go ahead will still fail for reasons already stated.

[Jimbuna]

Sentence is due today and I hope it is a 'whole of life' tariff.

Their behaviour in the dock today was disgraceful and only reinforces/confirms the type of (insert suitable expletive here) they both are.

The two men who murdered soldier Lee Rigby have fought with guards in the dock ahead of their sentencing at the Old Bailey.

Michael Adebolajo shouted "Allahu- Akbar" at the judge, and Adebolajo and co-killer Michael Adebowale were both restrained and pinned down by several guards.

The pair were taken back down to the cells and Adebolajo could be heard screaming from downstairs.

Some members of Mr Rigby's family were shocked and crying at having to witness the violent outburst in the dock.

http://news.sky.com/story/1217714/wo...eing-sentenced

[bertieck476]

Whole life and minimum 45 years sentence.

[TarJak]

Good. Though I hop we don't see parole boards of the future giving them any leniency.

[swamprat69er]

And you poor sods got to support them and their guards for the next 45 years. Could have saved the country a lot of money if they were hung instead.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by swamprat69er

And you poor sods got to support them and their guards for the next 45 years. Could have saved the country a lot of money if they were hung instead.

True that but British law currently won't allow it so I'll settle for what they got...then they can both rot in hell!!

[swamprat69er]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

True that but British law currently won't allow it so I'll settle for what they got...then they can both rot in hell!!

Ya, I know. Canuck law is the same and IT SUX!