Seeking an opinion from the community....

[Bubblehead1980]

After much work from others and myself, I have what was quest to get my personal install how I want it to a full on modding project, sort of adding on and updating.Now, plan to share these updates with everyone but undecided on an issue so figured would seek the opinions of those who will probably use said mod.

Depth charges in the game have always bothered me, some detonate very close and do little damage, other times they wipe your boat out or cause catastrophic damage.I have discovered this is because depth charges use hit points, which can vary with each one from 5 to 50 hitpoints, this is random. Most are probably somewhere in the middle but then may have a few all cause on the high scale, which causes the unrealistic" death blows" when charge is not that close.

I already lowered the distance in which the maximum damage is done unless charge is close and it has helped, damage does seem to accumulate and death blows are rare unless a lucky charge lands right on your deck and explodes.

Another issue is te "depth precision" setting which basically allows the AI to set charges at different depths based on players depth.For example , player is at 300 feet and depth precision is set to 5 meters(games uses metric system, much to my annoyance) , then the charges will explode at 300 feet or within 5 meters (above and below) .The problem with this is in RL the japanese did not have that option with their charges.From what I have read, their early charges could be set at 50, 100 , and 200 feet and lacked the punch explosive wise.This was why US subs who had test depths of 250 and 300 feet(could go much deeper if needed) were able to evade them early in the war.Of course the idiot Congressman May blabbed about this, the Japanese modified their design.The new charge had more explosive power and an exploder which could be set at 50, 100, 200, 300, and later,400, 500 feet, these later charges were indeed sub killers.

Unfortunately, I don't see how an get the game to give us that much accuracy in depth charge performance so I tried something out.I set depth precision to 1 meter, figuring not all exploded right at the depth, maybe slightly below or above but all were preset on that depth.Meaning if you are at 300 feet, depth charges will explode there or withing 1 meter.Now, I have tested this and it definitely gives a much more realistic feeling to a depth charge attack but suddenly found the death blows were back because in an effort to simulate the consistent explosive power of each charge, I put the hitpoints at 35 for each other.A few close(not killing close) but close quickly adds up the boats hitpoints, next thing I know hull damage is at 100, game over.

Now, plant o try lowering hit points some, perhaps the effective distance as well, see how it reacts.Can't go too low though or they simply never cause damage and depth charges are mere noise makers that shake the boat.

I suppose the opinion I am seeking is what does everyone think about the depth precision? Fix it as I have or leave it at default ? Anyone have advice? Something I am missing.

I released one version of my depth charge mod last week, it does not address the depth precision issue(well i lowered it from 7 to 5) and made it so charges have to be very close for a killing blow.

The goal is to have more realistic depth charge performance without taking away their ability to actually kill the sub or seriously damage it.Like everything with this game, its finding the balance.

[merc4ulfate]

I think the more depth the more hit point should be added since the added pressure of explosion and sea pressure puts more of a strain on the hull.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

I think the more depth the more hit point should be added since the added pressure of explosion and sea pressure puts more of a strain on the hull.

Would be nice but not possible in SH 4 as far as I know.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Another issue is te "depth precision" setting which basically allows the AI to set charges at different depths based on players depth.For example , player is at 300 feet and depth precision is set to 5 meters(games uses metric system, much to my annoyance) , then the charges will explode at 300 feet or within 5 meters ...

I suppose the opinion I am seeking is what does everyone think about the depth precision? Fix it as I have or leave it at default ? Anyone have advice? Something I am missing.

I think you made a mistake lowering the depth precision. If it works as you said, it would be better to increase it. That is, the depth charges would have a greater depth error and not be "aimed" so well. This would be more realistic in my view, and help make the charges less deadly.

IIRC, Duci played around with this, and cautioned that increasing the depth error too much, created the possibility of escorts blowing themselves up.

Something else you might consider, is checking and perhaps lowering the AP value. This might allow the charges to cause damage to the boat, without a likelyhood of a killer blow.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I think you made a mistake lowering the depth precision. If it works as you said, it would be better to increase it. That is, the depth charges would have a greater depth error and not be "aimed" so well. This would be more realistic in my view, and help make the charges less deadly.

IIRC, Duci played around with this, and cautioned that increasing the depth error too much, created the possibility of escorts blowing themselves up.

Something else you might consider, is checking and perhaps lowering the AP value. This might allow the charges to cause damage to the boat, without a likelyhood of a killer blow.

I considered that but I changed it because as far as realism is concerned, they could not say oh player is at 300 feet so charges will be set to explode at 290-315 feet and lay a pattern, they would have to set them at 300 feet. Like I said, the later charges could be set to 50, 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500.

Since game wont allow this I figured a substitute would be they can only choose one depth and put the 1 meter error up since sure exploders did not always work at the exact depth, so it adds variety as well.I found this to be more realistic as opposed to them being able to say drop four charges, set two at 300 feet and then then one at 315 and one at 290. I may go back though as I could see it making things a bit easy by simply diving a few feet deeper just before they drop, after stop pinging and have set the depth on the charges.I tested this, I was at 310 feet in a Salmon in October 1944, I ordered 330 feet just as a large pattern of charges(Type C escort) were deployed.All exploded above, pretty close and caused some damage(as they would have) but were still up around 310 feet.More realistic since in RL the charges would have been set at 300 or 400 feet.Now, if could make it where these depths were used and 4 charges deployed for example, two at 300 and two at 400, that would be okay but this smart bomb style depth charges thanks to the depth precision, it can be a bit much.Kind of torn what to do but thanks for your feedback.

I tested this and with the corrected hit points(35 for the later charges) it worked well, I took damage but no killing blows.Also, this forces the player to get below the pattern, which is what subs always tried to do.

I was hesitant to lower the armor level it penetrates from 12.0 since sub armor is set to 12.0, didnt want them to not be effective, suppose will test to see if it can still cause damage with their level dropped from 12.0 to say 11.0 or 11.5.

[TorpX]

I considered that but I changed it because as far as realism is concerned, they could not say oh player is at 300 feet so charges will be set to explode at 290-315 feet and lay a pattern, they would have to set them at 300 feet. Like I said, the later charges could be set to 50, 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500.

I don't think you understand how the math works here. By using a low value for depth precision, you are not limiting enemy depth charge patterns. They AI will always "set" them at your depth. They will explode at your depth, whatever it is. By increasing the value, there will be some error, at least. Neither way is strictly realistic, but if you use a larger error, that will make the ashcans somewhat less effective, which is what you want after all.

About the AP value, I don't know if it would matter that much. It is already pretty low (12.0). However, I think the blast can still total your hull, even if the AP value is less than the hull armor value. It just has to use "brute force", that's all. With only have 35 hit points, I am surprised they work as well as they do. What do the torpedo warheads have, 200?

[JoeCorrado]

Pretty interesting information here in an old research thread about ASW capabilities; if you hadn't seen it:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//sho...2&postcount=10


My perspective, as one who "plays" SH for entertainment and relaxation value is that I would prefer to avoid the instant death ending. A little suspense, uncertainty and drama are all enjoyable enough- but for me, it much better to be stalked, harassed and dismantled over time than to be gone in a second with the SH version of a guillotine dropping. I hate that as much as a CTD...

Looking forward to your mod and looking for the current version now.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by JoeCorrado

Pretty interesting information here in an old research thread about ASW capabilities; if you hadn't seen it:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//sho...2&postcount=10


My perspective, as one who "plays" SH for entertainment and relaxation value is that I would prefer to avoid the instant death ending. A little suspense, uncertainty and drama are all enjoyable enough- but for me, it much better to be stalked, harassed and dismantled over time than to be gone in a second with the SH version of a guillotine dropping. I hate that as much as a CTD...

Looking forward to your mod and looking for the current version now.

Mod is in SH 4 Gameplay section of downloads.There is post in the SH 4 forum with a link to it as well. Yes, the sudden death was always a bit gamey for me.Subs were lost to depth charges it was because they were crippled and sunk beyond crush depth.The Lagarto appears to be one of those rare cases where a lucky depth charge landed right near the hull and blew a hole in it, she sank to the shallow bottom of Gulf of Siam where she rests today.Why didnt the crew make it out? well 350 or so feet down, flooding was probably instant, gas etc likely. The Tang went down from torpedo hit, Only a few made it out.

I just about have it worked out where death blows are highly unlikely yet charges are still a real threat.Working on making the sub flood like in Travellers mod where it sinks from surface if flooded.Trying to find what files controls pump speed for pumping water out, its way too slow.A flaw in the game is inability to compensate for flooding.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I don't think you understand how the math works here. By using a low value for depth precision, you are not limiting enemy depth charge patterns. They AI will always "set" them at your depth. They will explode at your depth, whatever it is. By increasing the value, there will be some error, at least. Neither way is strictly realistic, but if you use a larger error, that will make the ashcans somewhat less effective, which is what you want after all.

About the AP value, I don't know if it would matter that much. It is already pretty low (12.0). However, I think the blast can still total your hull, even if the AP value is less than the hull armor value. It just has to use "brute force", that's all. With only have 35 hit points, I am surprised they work as well as they do. What do the torpedo warheads have, 200?

I am aware how it works, was describing how it should work as it did in real life.However, the AI does set the depth based on last sonar contact before deploying, when player enters their "blind spot", when they quit pinging just before deploying the charges.This is time player can change depth, direction etc. With depth precision set to 1.Player has two options, can try to add some depth 20-30 feet and get under the pattern or can just go ahead flank and ride the storm out.Thing is, especially in later war with more skilled escorts, that "lose time" between the last ping and deployment of charges, when AI seems to set the depth on the charges, is short.Player goes too early, may still end up with full pattern at his depth.
True, neither are exact reality but I feel it's closer than having the depth precision set to five or seven, there the escort is basically saying okay we we are going to set them to explode at all these varying depths.I feel them being set to one depth is closer to what the japanese really could do(50, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 feet) and forces player like I said, to ride it out or try to get UNDER the charges, which subs usually did.

Noticed in my testing eventually the AI (depending on skill) gets snowed and will drop at last depth, thinking you are still there.Example, I was in a Gato, they kept dropping at 300 feet, when in blind spot, I went ordered 350 feet, was at 330 when charges blew, shook boat nicely, caused some minor damage to conning tower and deck area, I leveled off at 350, escort came back around, pinging, I decided to try to ride it out before going any deeper(since Gato class boats didnt purposely go deeper unless absolutely forced) and they he dropped at 300-310 feet estimated depth, no damage since I was 40-50 feet below the explosions this time.

Well 35 hit points is a lot when you think about it.Subs max hit points are 300 I saw in the files opened with S3D.Figure a Type A/B escort in mid late war can deploy 16 charges in one attack between the rollers and y guns.35x16=560 hit points.Now, they have to be close, really close to get full hit points and not all will be close enough to even score that many but a large pattern, the points start adding up.35 is still enough to wreck a bulkhead and cause flooding if close, destroy vital equipment.Get two ro three close ones at once, have a problem.

I have been hesitant to reduce the armor level the charges can penetrate as figured would make them ineffective against subs but going to try it out, i reduced it from 12.0 to 11.0, subs armor is 12.0, we will see what it does if anything.