Syria conflict: 'Chemical attacks kill hundreds'

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by August

I'm thinking little or nothing Jim.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Jim, BO is golfing. Please leave a message.

I feared/thought as much

[eddie]

I'm sure BO is aware of what has happened over there. We've been fighting so damned long in the ME already, why should we get involved. We have spent trillions on the ME, isn't that enough? We've lost a lot of soldiers and have thousands of wounded, isn't that enough?

Unless of course you are part of that crowd who says war is good for business. American Defense Contractors are just waiting to get going into Syria, the sick bastids! They know where they can go, as far as I'm concerned!

[Oberon]

I think a lot of the fear is not so much the effects of the chemical weapons on a military level, but the fact that it's a new stage in the already bloody Syrian civil war, and it's going to cause even more fatalities than before.

Now, you take the average Scud missile, it has a payload ability of between 600-1000kg, that's about 2000lb, give or take a few hundred lb. Ironically, about the same size warhead of a V2 missile from WWII. So we can probably use this video as a fairly accurate representation of the blast effects of a conventional Scud:

http://vimeo.com/50445690
(About 17 minutes in)

And this video from Aleppo purports to show the impact of a Scud:


Now, with a conventional explosive blast there is a chance, in some cases, a very slim chance of survivors, especially if you're in a basement or some such place, which is where a lot of the casualties of this recent attack were. With a chemical attack, the basement is the worst place to be, and the likelihood of survival without protective equipment is lower.

Assad knows he can get away with pretty much anything because the West won't intervene because the general public of the West doesn't have the stomach for it, nor indeed do they really know which side to support.

Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world

[Wolferz]

From the news reports of this alleged use of chemical weapons, well that's the word the talking heads have been using, "alleged"...
It must be some cheap Sarin gas, because even a small drop of Sarin on your skin is enough to make you do the dying cockroach dance and kill you if you don't have an Atropine injector handy. There shouldn't be any video of sickened survivors at all. That's why I think the reports are bogus BS. They're just trying to stir the public into backing a military incursion into Syria and by association, Iran. The public is so damned gullible it's ridiculous and the warmongers will use it to their advantage.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Oberon

And this video from Aleppo purports to show the impact of a Scud:

Wonder what's that fire that flares few seconds before the explosion in the same
exact spot.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

From the news reports of this alleged use of chemical weapons, well that's the word the talking heads have been using, "alleged"...
It must be some cheap Sarin gas, because even a small drop of Sarin on your skin is enough to make you do the dying cockroach dance and kill you if you don't have an Atropine injector handy. There shouldn't be any video of sickened survivors at all. That's why I think the reports are bogus BS. They're just trying to stir the public into backing a military incursion into Syria and by association, Iran. The public is so damned gullible it's ridiculous.

Sarin isn't the only chemical weapon in the world. The Syrians have Tabun, VX and Mustard Gas as well as Sarin. Also, bear in mind that in a few of the videos you see the victims being sprayed with hosepipes in an attempt to dilute and wash away the chemical agent, furthermore, it's likely that Syrian chemical agents don't have the same shelf life that Western and Russian Sarin does because of impurities in its creation, Iraqi Sarin, for example, only persisted for a couple of weeks, whereas advanced Sarin can linger between weeks and months.
It's pretty much accepted that a chemical incident has occurred, the unknown factor is who did it. Assad to attack the enemy, or the FSA to frame Assad? That's the question, and by stopping the UN inspectors from visiting the area and independently evaluating the situation, Assad is making himself look guilty in the way that Saddam did when he played roulette with IAEA inspectors.

[mapuc]

Every one have his believe in things and every one picks the words that is said in a news program a.s.o. Every one also collect what he or she sees on the news.

Now that it is said I continue

Heard an expert on a danish radio show today

and he said something interesting.

Take a look at some of the victims from Saddam's attack on the Kurds in the 80'ies and then take a look at the victims from Syria- you will see a huge different.

He also said: It would be wrong things to do by Assad, now that he has good fortune on the battlefield.

So this is those words I picked up.

I doubt that there have been used chemical weapons in this attack

Markus

[Wolferz]

I'm with Markus.

If it was actually Sarin, they would all be dead.
If it was mustard gas, the victims would be choking on their own bodily fluids and would show signs of chemical burns on their skin.

The reports are a false flag manipulation attempting to make Assad look guilty. If that's even possible the way that scum bag has been acting.

There are a number of scenarios that could be at work here. Each as unlikely as the next.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

I'm with Markus.

If it was actually Sarin, they would all be dead.
If it was mustard gas, the victims would be choking on their own bodily fluids and would show signs of chemical burns on their skin.

The reports are a false flag manipulation attempting to make Assad look guilty. If that's even possible the way that scum bag has been acting.

There are a number of scenarios that could be at work here. Each as unlikely as the next.

So...what? Was there a sudden mass outbreak of epilepsy captured on film?



Syria must have some damn good child actors...

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Oberon

So...what? Was there a sudden mass outbreak of epilepsy captured on film?



Syria must have some damn good child actors...

Then enlight me here. What kind of nervgas has been used here? -If it has been used.

Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Then enlight me here. What kind of nervgas has been used here? -If it has been used.

Markus

I'm not a weapons inspector, but those reactions are not those of conventional weapons are they? You don't see mass outbreaks of convulsions from a standard explosion do you?

EDIT: If I had to guess I'd say it was either Sarin or VX. Now bear in mind that most chemical agents are water soluble, that's why the US dumps their chemical stockpiles at sea. So, the weapon hits the area, effects a set number of people (last estimate was in the low thousands), some die within minutes, others on the outskirts get a lower dosage and develop symptoms of exposure. They spread out from the impact site and are taken by friends to a hospital, bear in mind that most of this footage is coming from either in a hospital or outside a hospital, NOT in the actual impact zone. Some of the victims are washed down with hose pipes, that lessens the amount of chemical residue on them. Some of the people who have been exposed to the survivors of this attack may well develop complications over the coming weeks, some will no doubt die.
Now, short of either some very good child actors, special effects and make-up, or perhaps some sort of massive shock-wave cannon, I do not see a way to create that many blood-less victims without using chemical weapons. If the casualties were purely adult, then I would perhaps be skeptical that they were paid to act like that, but when you get children that cannot be much more than four or five, then it becomes harder to create that level of authenticity.
Could it be a fake? There is a chance, I cannot deny it, and I'm sorry if my tone is hostile but you cannot watch that footage and not get a little emotional about it. Honestly though, what advantage would the West gain from making such footage? What advantage would we gain from overthrowing Assad? What advantage have we gained in Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan? I don't think any of the Western governments particularly want to get involved in another war in the Middle East, because let's face it, all politicians care about is their popularity scores, and wars in the Middle East are a sure-fire way to sink your popularity, but I don't think that they can keep out of it, and whether this attack was the FSA trying to frame Assad to get the West to come to their aid, or Assad trying to break a stalemate in the area, I do not know, but I am very sure that some sort of chemical attack has taken place here, either that or this is some sort of elaborate ruse, far beyond the abilities of Syria, and if it is by the West then for what purpose would it serve? Another expensive war in a time of financial austerity that will sink their popularity and make them unelectable, and whilst it may remove a Russian ally, it won't remove the Russian base, it won't remove a threat to Israel, and it won't make the new Syrian government necessarily any more favourable towards the West, if anything it will probably just result in another breeding ground for Al'Qaeda. Not that the current situation in Syria isn't conducive to Al'Qaeda operations.
So why?

EDIT EDIT: It could equally be Chlorine gas, it's been used before and it doesn't have the longevity of modern gases but it's still potent and it doesn't necessarily kill straight away:

From the British Official History of the attack on Hill 60, 1915.

90 men died from gas poisoning in the trenches or before they could be got to a dressing station; of the 207 brought to the nearest dressing stations, 46 died almost immediately and 12 after long suffering

Furthermore it has supposedly been used in Syria already, by the FSA which means that it's likely that the Syrian army has it too.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/24/wo...emical-weapons

http://world.time.com/2013/04/01/syr...emical-attack/

[mapuc]

Every military expert that I have seen on danish tv, say that it would be the most wrong thing by Assad to do, now that he have won a lot on the battlefield.

Have been thinking and I could be wrong.

Could it be that Assad is so coldhearted that he did it and knows that Russia and China is going to prevent any military intervention by the nato?

Just a thought.

Markus

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm not a weapons inspector, but those reactions are not those of conventional weapons are they? You don't see mass outbreaks of convulsions from a standard explosion do you?

They have been hit by something, that for sure.

From what I know Syria has a huge amount of Saringas and if I'm not wrong a lot of mustard gas and none of these two seems to have been used here.

I'm like you not an expert on this.

We have to remember one important thing- The first victims in a war is the truth and the winner is the propaganda.

I say that we await the UN-report then we can discuss whatever our response should be.

It could be true(look at my post above)

Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by mapuc

They have been hit by something, that for sure.

From what I know Syria has a huge amount of Saringas and if I'm not wrong a lot of mustard gas and none of these two seems to have been used here.

I'm like you not an expert on this.

We have to remember one important thing- The first victims in a war is the truth and the winner is the propaganda.

I say that we await the UN-report then we can discuss whatever our response should be.

It could be true(look at my post above)

Markus

I agree (and apologise for the mass-editing of my post whilst you were typing your response) and there are certainly going to be inflated casualty figures and lots of lingering shots on dying children just before the family dinner time meal, it's the same sort of tactic used by charities for raising money for Darfur and places like that, but in both situations something has occurred, it's just how it's reported, and I am dubious whether Assad conducted this latest attack, because as you have stated, it doesn't make political sense, although given that the Syrian army started bombarding the same area the day after the incident then perhaps it was a prelude to an offensive to try and retake Ghouta.
There's been talk of 'Agent 15' or BZ being the chemical used in the attacks, certainly it does bear some of the marks of BZ, however the Syrian army is not known to possess BZ, so if it is BZ, and given the situation in Syria and the inability of the UN inspectors to do their job, we are likely to never know, then the question is where did they get it from?
One thing is for certain that it wasn't a Blister agent, since none of the victims had skin blisters, so it rules out Mustard gas, but IIRC Nerve agents do not create blistering.

[mapuc]

Have read your edited post and this one.

I agree in everything you wrote.

I myself will await the UN-report. If it comes.

Maybe we have to look at the informal channels to get the truth, ´cause I doubt that the UN gets the clearence to access this area(thinking of Russia and China blocking for a demand by UN)

Markus