Bill Clinton got electric cars right

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

it was in the mid 80's that carburation started going away.

Fuel injection didn't increase "efficiency". They allow for "dirtier fuel" to be used (thus the requirement for catalytic converters in cars to keep excess crap from coming through exhausts).

What you say is true I think another major player that helped push out carbonation was the increased use of computers in cars.Before they could be electronically controlled fuel injection was only found on some very high performance cars.

Catalytic converters on the other hand became a requirement of the DOT back in 1975 about ten years before fuel injection became standard. Fuel injection became popular because it can be more easily controlled electronically and could be tied into an electronic emissions control system.A fuel injection is also simply put a more efficient way to deliver fuel so it in theory actually is more fuel efficient than a carburetor and in modern cars produced in that last few years the fuel injection system is highly efficient.

Ask any shade tree mechanic how hard to can be to get a pesky carb running smoothly.It can be a real chore if especially on a multi carb setup.It took me weeks to get the triple Webbers on my '72 240 working just right.

This article explains it well
http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repa...ques075_4.html

[MH]

Originally Posted by Platapus

That's the problem with standardization -- every one does it differently.

Yeah lol

Funny thing is that the customers are very happy about their cars.
The problem i think is in the marketing as it is psychological one , to make people switch to electric cars.
The issue of only one car type on the market does not help either.

[Wolferz]

Ask any shade tree mechanic how hard to can be to get a pesky carb running smoothly.It can be a real chore if especially on a multi carb setup.It took me weeks to get the triple Webbers on my '72 240 working just right

Preaching to the choir.

Try tuning the triple carb setup on a '53 corvette six banger. I've done it..
I have rebuilt about every kind of carb ever used.

GM started tinkering with fuel injection in 1957 but didn't really get serious about it until around 1970. Brought about, as was mentioned above, by electronic control systems. The ECM (Electronic Control Module) was first invented for use in the space shuttle program. Little computers designed for their light weight. Which enabled them to be used as multiple redundant systems on the shuttle orbiters. First applied to automobile engines made by GM around 1976 and were standard equipment from 1977 on.
Unless someone comes up with a commercially and economically viable battery powered system, hydrogen will become the fuel of the future as fossil fuels begin to wane in their abundance. It burns so much cleaner than that dirty old gasoline.
Stainless steel exhaust systems will become a priority due to hydrogen's exhaust type being water.

As for my claim that the oil companies squelched new patents on more fuel efficient equipment, there is no proof that can be readily accessed for public viewing. If you ran a big oil company...
How deep would you bury that kind of damning information?

Look how deep Tesla's inventions and research got buried by the "Owners of society" with the blessings of their government.

It's all about the Benjamins boys and girls.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Preaching to the choir.

Try tuning the triple carb setup on a '53 corvette six banger. I've done it..
I have rebuilt about every kind of carb ever used.

GM started tinkering with fuel injection in 1957 but didn't really get serious about it until around 1970. Brought about, as was mentioned above, by electronic control systems. The ECM (Electronic Control Module) was first invented for use in the space shuttle program. Little computers designed for their light weight. Which enabled them to be used as multiple redundant systems on the shuttle orbiters. First applied to automobile engines made by GM around 1976 and were standard equipment from 1977 on.
Unless someone comes up with a commercially and economically viable battery powered system, hydrogen will become the fuel of the future as fossil fuels begin to wane in their abundance. It burns so much cleaner than that dirty old gasoline.
Stainless steel exhaust systems will become a priority due to hydrogen's exhaust type being water.

As for my claim that the oil companies squelched new patents on more fuel efficient equipment, there is no proof that can be readily accessed for public viewing. If you ran a big oil company...
How deep would you bury that kind of damning information?

Look how deep Tesla's inventions and research got buried by the "Owners of society" with the blessings of their government.

It's all about the Benjamins boys and girls.

I do not know if I fully agree with your argument that oil companies wanted things to be less efficient per say they also have some of the best chemists working for them so they can come up with all manner of things.

This defies logic from a supply sense if fuel was consumed too rapidly then they would be unable to supply it fast enough in order to meet demand.No large business operation makes a good profit by having an in demand product become too scarce or have notable supply issues.It is bad for business legal or illegal.Look at how much money and effort drug cartels around the world put into supply.

With an electric vehicle the money is in charging the batteries I predict this will cause suppliers to focus on short life span rapid charge time batteries they want people to stop for a short time more often than a long span less often.It is not really in their best interest to produce a battery that has a very long life span(per charge) but also lengthy change time.Of course the thing I love about a 100% electric car is that it still relies on fossil fuels where did the electricity that charged that battery come from most likely a coal fired power plant.

People tend to forget that when automobiles first came into use there where three major power sources 1.Steam 2.Gasoline 3.Electric it took about ten years for the gasoline powered automobile to dominate the market.It will take at least that long for a fully viable replacement of gasoline/diesel powered vehicles to take over.And in large diesel/diesel-electric applications such as ships,trains(North American) and large tucks and other heavy equipment it may take a while longer before something comes along that can equal or surpass the torque that a diesel/diesel-electric can generate in the same size package(a very large electric motor can produce far more torque but is not mobile and is typically powered by water turbines or coal or natural gas powered turbines(think power plant applications).

[Wolferz]

Laws of supply and demand do only one thing. They dictate the price of the product. I've been around cars and trucks long enough to have witnessed the full gambit from price wars for abundant gasoline to shortages caused by OPEC greed. Believe me , Oil companies love supplying their product to inefficient cars. As long as there is oil and cars that use it, they'll be happy to keep pumping it out of the ground. Compared to the current choices for alternatives, gasoline still gives you the biggest bang for the buck.

Have you noticed the price disparity between diesel and gasoline? Diesel costs more than gas for no good reason. It takes fewer steps to crack oil into diesel than it does gasoline. A fact that used to make diesel cheaper per gallon.
Why do you suppose it flip fopped?
Because diesel fuel moves our freight? Because fuel oil runs our boilers? Some oil executive decided to make it so? All of the above?

I would love to see electric cars become a viable transportation choice but, it's going to take time and a great deal of ingenuity.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Wolferz

Have you noticed the price disparity between diesel and gasoline? Diesel costs more than gas for no good reason. It takes fewer steps to crack oil into diesel than it does gasoline. A fact that used to make diesel cheaper per gallon.
Why do you suppose it flip fopped?
Because diesel fuel moves our freight? Because fuel oil runs our boilers? Some oil executive decided to make it so? All of the above?

.

It costs more because the demand for diesel has risen.The federal tax for diesel is also higher than the federal on gasoline. .24 cents per gallon compared to .6 cents per gallon on gasoline.

I'm sorry but not everything is a conspiracy of oil companies.And dont mistake me for a person who does not ask questions I barely fit into that mold in the military and often got in trouble for my free thinking. If oil companies really had the power to force us to drive less efficient vehicles new cars would not be averaging 34+ per gallon hell even pickups now are averaging 25MPG fifteen years ago the typical sedan got 25~28MPG now they get 30 at worst and trucks went from ~14 to 25 MPG so vehicles are getting more fuel efficient despite your claim that oil companies want less efficient engines.They must really be holding the auto makers ears to the frying pan.

Additionally everyone in China and India wants to drive a car now so the demand for both gasoline and diesel has risen as a result.


Diesel has been used in heavy equipment for many years so the argument that the price is higher for that reason does not stand.Fuel oil is but one method to heat a structure and it is rapidly being replaced by natural gas in many places.


http://www.factcheck.org/2008/05/die...asoline-costs/

[Wolferz]

All good points Stealhead. Higher demand always equates to higher prices thanks to those meddling speculators on Wall Street and Uncle Sam's need for cash.

For me, all points are moot since I don't drive much anymore. A 25 gallon tank of petrol in my V-8 pickup lasts me about a month.
I could probably get by with an electric car as my trips are mostly short hops but, the current cost of that type of vehicle is prohibitive. I wouldn't mind having a Tesla parked in my driveway.

If we really wanted to boil down the technology of our internal combustion pushers, you could say that they're all electrically powered since it takes some very high voltage to detonate a fuel/air mixture. Without that you have a gargantuan paper weight. Diesels are the exception to some degree because they only have glow plugs to start the cycle and detonation is caused by high compression.

Thank goodness I don't have to depend on a fuel oil boiler to heat my home. I burn COAL baby. No natural gas in my neck of the woods prohibits that type of heat and propane is more expensive than fuel oil. Not to mention inherently dangerous.

[Stealhead]

The whole MPG thing can be very deceiving because how a person drives and most importantly accelerates and brakes has huge effect.Also the "rules" the EPA has about the testing auto makers are supposed to do is very loosely interpreted.

The people that drive around and mash the gas a lot and get to the speed they want to travel at rapidly will always have crap mileage.If they where to drive any vehicle in the same manner they would still have poor mileage results be it a gasoline or hydrogen or electric.

I am the steady type when I am driving most of the time (excluding certain times that I drive my Z car) so I get fairly good mileage.What I really get a kick out of are the people that stomp the gas get up to 70 or whatever and then 500 yards down the road they turn off.What a waste of fuel just to get there .5 seconds faster.

Sometimes I see a Prius (which I already think is a preposterous car because it more of a total impact on the environment than a Toyota Tundra thanks to its complex construction and the sourcing required to make a Prius) and the driver is going 90 MPH I think what a jack wagon the odds are also very high that the driver is also a vegan and makes sure that he mentions it to everyone that he meets.You ever notice that? I have no idea how many people I know are herbivores or that dont eat pork or whatever but I know of total strangers that are vegans and usually they do drive a Prius and give it a stupid name like Taco Blanco gluten free, meat free, fish free, harmed plant free Taco Blanco.Why not ride a bicycle if you really wanted to protect the environment?

Not trying to ruffle any Prius owning vegans out there just rambling.If you choose to make yourself known though............