It's time I finally learn (Manual shooting)

[Maggoty]

It seems to me someone was trying to make a mini game by mixing the army's system of height in scope with stadimeters. Infantrymen have to calculate range by estimating their targets height, their targets height in the scope and doing some math with those two values. It looks like the waterline at the top of your target thing does nothing more in the game than to note the height of your target in the periscope. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually copied the army's math and the book/waterline are the two values.

[fastfed]

Originally Posted by magic452

AoB is what the captain on the target would see if he was looking at your boat. It's the angle off his bow (course) not yours.

There are several ways to get AoB.

If you've got the target course plotted than draw a line from your boat to the target and using the compass tool measure the angle between that line and the target course, that angle will be the AoB. Have the PK on when you enter this value.

Second you can just eyeball the AoB input dial and match what it looks like comp[aired to the periscope view, keep adjusting as necessary. The white X is the computed impact point so it should stay on the target ship. Takes time to do this and lots of practice.

This link has the method I use
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...8&postcount=16

Always input the data in this order.
Turn on the PK and set speed and send to TDC
Next input AoB
Last range/bearing. Always last.
Check your firing solution on the attack map.

Magic

Edit, you posted as I was typing oh so slowly. I have two stupid fingers.

The problem with using the click for speed thing is you need two very good steadimeter readings about a minute or so for it to work, I never had much luck with it.

It's not cheating you gotta learn some how.

ok... AOB is the course that the target is on ???

Again, it really sucks I have NO FREAKING IDEA about this stuff and I'm a stupid simulation nut.

As for that compass tool that gives me the bearing, I'm extremely confused on how it works right, every video I see on youtube, they never explain it more than just .. Draw a line into the target ship, then down to the middle of your sub.

Great! It gives me weird numbers, and it can be off by a large degree if I do it 3x in a row.

Do I have to multiply that number or something? Or divide it?

So confused

also what does PK mean?

[Shkval]

Try these one's http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ht=AOB+formula PK is position keeper...

[magic452]

PK = Position Keeper, the red button on the bottom of the left set of dials.
It will update the firing solution automatically based on the data you first input into the TDC. If the target has not changed speed or heading the white X will stay on the target and you can shoot at any time. The torpedo will hit where the X is. The problem with playing "so called" 100% realism is that you can't check the firing solution with out entering a new solution, that is why I use map updates on. You may take a pretty good solution and make it a bad one and you can't go back.

To measure AoB by drawing a line form your boat to the target you must pause the game because the target will be moving and each time you do this it will be different, that is why I don't use this method.

The compass will not give you bearing, it's used to get AoB, the angular difference between the target course and the line of sight to your boat.
You know the target speed and range/bearing what the AoB tells you, or rather tells the TDC is the angle that target is moving at so it can compute the target course retaliative to your boat. The Pk will keep this updated as things move.

Using the tool helper for the ruler will bring up a compass rose.
Once you have a target course line, three minute rule, extend that line way out there and you place the center of the rose on the course line ahead of the target and read the number where the line crosses the outside of the rose closest to the target. That number is the target course in degrees, that is the number you use for AoB, you turn the AoB input dial until the ship icon on the left dial is pointed at the number of degrees you read off the compass. Unless the target changes speed or heading that number (target course) will remain the same.

I'll put it another way say you have a target that has a heading of 270°, that's moving from right to left across your screen. Your heading north 0° and your about 1,000 yards below the projected course of the target.
When the target is 4,000 yards away someone standing on the bow of the target will look at your boat and he will be looking almost straight ahead a little to his left (Port AoB) As he gets closer and closer he will have to look more to the left side to see you until he is straight ahead of you, at that point he will be looking 90° from the center line of his ship or his course. That 90° is the AoB at that moment in time. For AoB you must think from the target's point of view not yours. Exactly where is that guy looking to see you. If the TDC knows that angle (AoB) it can compute the target course. When you plot you know the target course but the TDC doesn't. AoB is the way you tell the TDC how to compute the course.

Clear as mud isn't it.

Manual targeting might sound difficult but once you see how things work it's not all that hard. It just takes practice and more practice.

Hope this helps.

Magic

[Carrollsue]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

"Hey, believe me, I’m a old tanker and the M60A1 back, use the stadimeter for ranging and it works, but you superimposed the images"

Yeah, that's the kind I'm used to, got two images make them one image and that's the range. My Dad had a 35mm camera with a split image side by side rangefinder which I'm pretty sure was WWII era or earlier, I was born in 1953 and remember him using that camera when I was a kid. This kind of thing;



Is just too weird for me, instead of superimposing the two images to one you're supposed to place the waterline of the top image on the mast tops of the bottom image and it's just not accurate enough even at close ranges. The real thing MIGHT have been like that, I have no idea.

Don’t think it can be done that way on water. No, I’m not sure if that matter that much, if it’s that accurate (distance) really, AoB and speed are the important one for the lead, but O’baby will run until it’s out of gas or hits something.
Now that M1A2, hit the laser and I had you with mm!

[Carrollsue]

Originally Posted by Maggoty

It seems to me someone was trying to make a mini game by mixing the army's system of height in scope with stadimeters. Infantrymen have to calculate range by estimating their targets height, their targets height in the scope and doing some math with those two values. It looks like the waterline at the top of your target thing does nothing more in the game than to note the height of your target in the periscope. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually copied the army's math and the book/waterline are the two values.

Will, kind of…. I have a tube with mirror and lens of a know length, so you can get two image’s and when you superimpose them on a calibrated system you find distance and you can find height doing that to, just different technique. Now with that , I'm not the a good math person, but if I know the height of something and using a machine that will give me the angle between that height and the straight line to the target that I’m looking at it( not sure if it cos or sin), I can find the length to it. using Trig

[Simmy]

The problem I was having was that there is NO white x.
I was learning with TMO2.5 and all that showed on the screen was a black
slash mark, which didn't make a lot of sense.
Maybe I should try using RFB or something besides TMO?

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by fastfed

ok... AOB is the course that the target is on ???

Again, it really sucks I have NO FREAKING IDEA about this stuff and I'm a stupid simulation nut.

As for that compass tool that gives me the bearing, I'm extremely confused on how it works right, every video I see on youtube, they never explain it more than just .. Draw a line into the target ship, then down to the middle of your sub.

Great! It gives me weird numbers, and it can be off by a large degree if I do it 3x in a row.

Do I have to multiply that number or something? Or divide it?

So confused

also what does PK mean?

A perfect AOB is the targets course relative to your sub. You can mark the ships course and use the compass or if you have good stad measurements, when you ask for speed, you get course as well. Simply spin the AOB wheel to the course. Course in real life, they did the math or simply guessed.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nice thread, I remember when I first tried manual targeting, totally changed the experience

[twm47099]

Originally Posted by Maggoty

It seems to me someone was trying to make a mini game by mixing the army's system of height in scope with stadimeters. Infantrymen have to calculate range by estimating their targets height, their targets height in the scope and doing some math with those two values. It looks like the waterline at the top of your target thing does nothing more in the game than to note the height of your target in the periscope. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually copied the army's math and the book/waterline are the two values.

The method in the game, matching the WL with the top of the mast, was how it was done. There are a couple of WW2 periscopes in the Washington Navy Yard Navy Museum. There is a sliding plate at the eyepiece that moves up and down when you turn the range knob. One image moves. The double image (put base of one at top of the other) is not as easy to use as a camera range finder (although that could be due to degradation of old optics), but it was designed to work at much longer distances and without a long enough range finder baseline.

This is a link to the 1946 periscope manual. One thing I found interesting is that the stadimeter (at least in 1946) could be rotated 90 degrees to be able to use ship length as well as mast or funnel height.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/pscope/chap4c.htm#4J

In "Run Silent Run Deep" there are a few descriptions of attack approaches where the range is estimated using the stadimeter. In a couple of long range early estimates the captain estimates the height of the mast above the deck (not WL) and uses that as his reference height. As the range shortens he improves the range estimates.

Tom

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by twm47099

The method in the game, matching the WL with the top of the mast, was how it was done..........

This is a link to the 1946 periscope manual. One thing I found interesting is that the stadimeter (at least in 1946) could be rotated 90 degrees to be able to use ship length as well as mast or funnel height.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/pscope/chap4c.htm#4J

In "Run Silent Run Deep" there are a few descriptions of attack approaches where the range is estimated using the stadimeter. In a couple of long range early estimates the captain estimates the height of the mast above the deck (not WL) and uses that as his reference height. As the range shortens he improves the range estimates.

Tom

Yep, that's how it was done. I too have read how the stadimeter could be moved both vertically and horizontally depending on your desire to calculate for either range or angle on bow. The vertical placement measured height, the horizontal placement measured length......both measurements were compared to what the "known" estimated measurements should be. A tool like the Range Omnimeter was used to help in calculating the difference between the two (so was a quick mathematician on the firing party). The estimated range came from the height calculation, the AoB of the target came from the length measurement difference.

The stock game needs to be corrected for several things before a good manual firing solution can be gleaned. The mast heights need to be corrected; the Field of View needs to be corrected allowing the scopes Telemeter Divisions to be used for measurement. For instance, when the game was first released the jap CV Hiryu had a mast height of 20 meters (65.6 feet). After a lot of gnashing of teeth, the Developers changed some of the worst offenders (as memory serves me, it was with their 1.4 patch), however their new mast height for the Hiryu is still off the mark by about 6 meters. One of the things you'll run into is some mods don't pay a bit of attention to this type of thing. Take TMO 2.5 and check the Recognition Manual for the Hiryu. The mast height is back to the original figure of 20 meters. To read an accurate stadimeter measurement it should read about 37 meters (121.4 feet). The difference in the height will throw off a stadimeter reading by about half the range it should read.

It's too bad the game limit's us to only using the stadimeter for range finding with the vertical process. Believe me, if there were a way to make the stadimeter work as the real thing I'd of done it. But the stadimeter is "hard coded" in the game (much like the math formula it uses to determine the stadimeters reading), there's nothing we can do about its short comings.

One thing I know we could do is make the Recognition Manual list more than one height measurement. Allowing a player to choose which particular spot on the target you wish to use when matching the stadimeter water line to it. You'd have to have a better way of telling the TDC/Position Keeper what height to use when you do the stadimeter second image, but for a long time I've considered doing it. The first part of the issue is done with the correction of the Field of View to the measuring device (the scopes view) with Optical Targeting Correction. What's left is to take each target ship and measure to the various spots on the ship (the ships funnel, the top of the bridge, the ships deck), put those measurements into the RM, then make a dial for the ships particular height that's used by the stadimeter and make a range estimate using that particular spot. If you can't see the mast top, use the targets funnel instead. Just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while now.

[Simmy]

So no come back as to why there is no white x in TMO2.5?
Or did no one notice this?

[twm47099]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

...What's left is to take each target ship and measure to the various spots on the ship (the ships funnel, the top of the bridge, the ships deck), put those measurements into the RM, then make a dial for the ships particular height that's used by the stadimeter and make a range estimate using that particular spot. If you can't see the mast top, use the targets funnel instead. Just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while now.

I would love to be able to choose the top of the funnel where possible; the mast is just to skinny and with its growing and shrinking, it's often very tricky to get a good reading. But I guess it is one way to try to simulate the uncertainty that existed in RL (assuming the developers made a conscious decision.)

Tom

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by twm47099

I would love to be able to choose the top of the funnel where possible; the mast is just to skinny and with its growing and shrinking, it's often very tricky to get a good reading. But I guess it is one way to try to simulate the uncertainty that existed in RL (assuming the developers made a conscious decision.)

Tom

The way they put the stadimeter together, they left themselves only the one location for figuring range. However, there are ways around using the mast top as the only placement. I've had many targets using the funnel, bridge top, carrier flight deck, with some of my mods. The only problem.... you have to pick just one spot for each ship. RFB uses my process when it has the merchants using the mast heights, the warships using the funnels, the CV's using the flight deck. But, I see the potential of setting a dial, telling the TDC what height to use, then using the stadimeter to mark the spot where the dimension your using is located. You could pick and choose the spot you want depending on the distance, or weather issue that may hamper you finding the mast top.

There is one problem though with using something other than the mast top. The lower you go within the scope view, with the water line mark, the larger the error is if your off a bit with the marking. How much is a bit? Just one pixel width could have the range found to be 100's of yards off!! The dev's put this greater error into the mix to simulate the fact that a target that's near the water line is expected to be farther away in distance than when you take a reading in the middle and towards the top of the scopes view. This gives the effect of creating greater errors with targets farther away, than ones near. Tricky weren't they?!

[fastfed]

Wow.. I reallly... REALLY REALLY suck at this

I'm about to go back to auto shooting.. I'm close, kinda close but I'm shooting from the hip and im missing.

I know its got to do with the AOB..