Ex-LAPD policeman surrounded in cabin in Big Bear, CA

[CaptainHaplo]

ok you two - behave.

Sky - what Armistead is saying is that by having an "explanation" of why, it can create the "excuse" in the process. This is not always the case, but happens more times than not in cases like this because people use the explanation to excuse the actions.

If the guy was fired unjustly - he should have just sucked it up and moved on with life. We all have stuff hit us that isnt' "fair". The problem is he didn't move on - he chose to let it eat at him to the point of murder. There is no excuse for such actions - but some people (not all) will go to any length to absolve people of personal responsibility. It is that which Armistead is talking about.

[TLAM Strike]

I looked over some of his manifesto, best quote ever...

If you had a well regulated AWB, this would not happen. The time is now to reinstitute a ban that will save lives.

Get rid of your guns or I kill you?

So remember support a new AWB, it's what Chris Dorner (cop killer, murderer of four) would want.

Sheesh its not the guns, in the constant anti-gun rhetoric and prominent news stories of mass shootings that glorify the killers that put ideas like this in to the heads of disturbed people. Get a gun; you'll be a rebel cuz The Man doesn't want you to have one, shoot a bunch of people; everyone will know your name from CNN. It once was kids, then it was felons, now it's people with training.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Sheesh its not the guns, in the constant anti-gun rhetoric and prominent news stories of mass shootings that glorify the killers that put ideas like this in to the heads of disturbed people. Get a gun; you'll be a rebel cuz The Man doesn't want you to have one, shoot a bunch of people; everyone will know your name from CNN. It once was kids, then it was felons, now it's people with training.

So anti-narcotics law enforcement is responsible drug use. Laws against domestic abuse are responsible for men beating their wives. Traffic laws are the reason behind reckless driving. That's some logic.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

So anti-narcotics law enforcement is responsible drug use. Laws against domestic abuse are responsible for men beating their wives. Traffic laws are the reason behind reckless driving. That's some logic.

Laws are not stopping such acts are they? The idea that such acts are acceptable is the problem. The problem is that the portrayal of such acts in the media glorify them, not in that they are just shown but in the context they are shown as positive.

Be like Snoop, smoke weed every day. While your at it smack a ho, you'll be a real pimp then. Your beamer is the best car in the world, people will stop for you as you drive by texting.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Armistead

There is no explanation except he was angry and evil. Millions of people suffer wrong and have no need to murder innocent people. My guess is some of his complaint is right, but after he was fired, instead of picking up his life like normal people do, he fumed in anger for years. I bet he was killing people in his head years ago. He chose not to make proper change in his life. He could've filed a civil lawsuit, called the NAACP, fought racism, helped others. Instead he blamed others, giving up control of his life. Sure, we could find explanations for his anger, but not for his murdering innocent people.

That has got to be one of the best comments on this subject that I've read anywhere.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That has got to be one of the best comments on this subject that I've read anywhere.

Aye. It makes sense. Whereas when I was reading Dorner's rant, it was the very beginning that already confused me. He went on for a long time about how important the name is to a fellow and how you do things to make a name for yourself and keep it good.

And so his solution for clearing his name is...to start killing people like his former lawyer's daughter and her boyfriend? That's his solution?

He wanted not to be remembered as a man who filed an unfounded complaint against his colleague and decided to instead be remembered as a man who murdered people, went on the run and died in fire if the latest reports are to be believed.

How the heck is that helping in the society remembering him as an honorable and good fellow?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Armistead

You excused it with the "However". It's like saying "I'm sorry, BUT".

There is no explanation except he was angry and evil. Millions of people suffer wrong and have no need to murder innocent people. My guess is some of his complaint is right, but after he was fired, instead of picking up his life like normal people do, he fumed in anger for years. I bet he was killing people in his head years ago. He chose not to make proper change in his life. He could've filed a civil lawsuit, called the NAACP, fought racism, helped others. Instead he blamed others, giving up control of his life. Sure, we could find explanations for his anger, but not for his murdering innocent people.

I got wrongly fired once, because my Supervisor lied to protect his butt, was I mad, you bet, did I go on a shooting rampage killing innocent people....no.

All that so far is just your belief.

Next time you are in town, go to the library and get a book on psyciatric case-studies. You'd be surprised to learn that people can be or become that mad that they become delusional, start to hear voice sin their head, write hundreds of pages of cryptic theories about how they think "they" are watching them from 5th dimension, and finally started to kill people.

I do not excuse what he did, and I said that several times, in black on white letters. But if you cannot differ between an excuse and an explanation - I do not buy your theory on how the one leads to the other necessarily - then the problem is with you, and your exlcusively. And when I ask those two question that I pout up, your reaction just is to accuse me of sympathising with a multiple murder and wanting to excuse that, I am getting slightly pissed by that, like I get pissed when I would get called a Nazi because I explained my view on how and why Hitler was able to come to power and install his control.

Excuse and explanation are two totally different things, to start with. You can enact as if you do not understand this in order to get a cheap opportunity for a quick slap at somebody. But still excuse remains to be something different than an explanation.

It also helps not to try to think with a by a bag of aroused emotions. Feeling, and thinking, are two different things too, you know.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Laws are not stopping such acts are they? The idea that such acts are acceptable is the problem. The problem is that the portrayal of such acts in the media glorify them, not in that they are just shown but in the context they are shown as positive.

Be like Snoop, smoke weed every day. While your at it smack a ho, you'll be a real pimp then. Your beamer is the best car in the world, people will stop for you as you drive by texting.

So should we do away with the laws? That would be pretty silly.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

All that so far is just your belief.

Next time you are in town, go to the library and get a book on psyciatric case-studies. You'd be surprised to learn that people can be or become that mad that they become delusional, start to hear voice sin their head, write hundreds of pages of cryptic theories about how they think "they" are watching them from 5th dimension, and finally started to kill people.

I do not excuse what he did, and I said that several times, in black on white letters. But if you cannot differ between an excuse and an explanation - I do not buy your theory on how the one leads to the other necessarily - then the problem is with you, and your exlcusively. And when I ask those two question that I pout up, your reaction just is to accuse me of sympathising with a multiple murder and wanting to excuse that, I am getting slightly pissed by that, like I get pissed when I would get called a Nazi because I explained my view on how and why Hitler was able to come to power and install his control.

Excuse and explanation are two totally different things, to start with. You can enact as if you do not understand this in order to get a cheap opportunity for a quick slap at somebody. But still excuse remains to be something different than an explanation.

It also helps not to try to think with a by a bag of aroused emotions. Feeling, and thinking, are two different things too, you know.

Certainly it's my belief, because it's my opinion, just as you have yours.

We call those people nut cases. I don't see that here, I see a man that got angry, instead of dealing with that anger, he let it spiral out of control to the point it consumed his life and he sought revenge. It's shameful how many are making a hero out of him. Who among us hasn't been so angry we didn't want to kill someone, but 99% of us realize it solves nothing and instead of blaming and ruining lives, we change ours and move on.

Life has always been a pile of unfair BS, it's something we as humans deal with and mostly live with. No doubt, sometimes it takes violence to bring forth change, but that is different than revenge. You can't compare revenge to a mass revolution of people fighting tyranny.

No doubt many social and cultural issues effect us all, sometimes unfairly. I agree we're all interconnected on many levels, we should try to deal with those issues, but it's not an excuse or explanation to murder innocent people.

As far as I can tell, there was nothing in this mans life to show any mental illness, in fact, this story is common, someone gets fired, they go to killing. It happens everyday. Most of us take responsibility for our lives, a few go into pity mode, blame others, you hurt me so I'll get you.

It's the new political correctness, no one is responsible for their actions anymore, someone else is at fault.


Any explanation for this behavior is unacceptable

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

So should we do away with the laws? That would be pretty silly.

Laws exist to allow society to punish bad acts. If laws prevented criminal acts then "Thou shall not steal" would have ended theft.

Outlawing something does not prevent someone from doing or possessing it, it only allows society to punish that person.

Preventing said person from doing or possessing something bad for society in the first place is the responsibility of society; first to indoctrinate the individual on the societal norms they are expected to uphold and second to warn society if an individual poses a danger to said society. It is in the second stage that legislation takes effect allowing society to deal with a wrongdoer.

Now implementing new laws to prevent something that old laws failed to prevent is well... whats the definition of insanity? Doing something over and over again expecting a different result. It does not seem sufficient for some to have for example murder outlawed they must outlaw everything remotely connected to the act, or conversely one single item connected to it. Such thinking does not address the problem of what caused the murder to occur in the first place.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Laws exist to allow society to punish bad acts. If laws prevented criminal acts then "Thou shall not steal" would have ended theft.

Outlawing something does not prevent someone from doing or possessing it, it only allows society to punish that person.

Preventing said person from doing or possessing something bad for society in the first place is the responsibility of society; first to indoctrinate the individual on the societal norms they are expected to uphold and second to warn society if an individual poses a danger to said society. It is in the second stage that legislation takes effect allowing society to deal with a wrongdoer.

Now implementing new laws to prevent something that old laws failed to prevent is well... whats the definition of insanity? Doing something over and over again expecting a different result. It does not seem sufficient for some to have for example murder outlawed they must outlaw everything remotely connected to the act, or conversely one single item connected to it. Such thinking does not address the problem of what caused the murder to occur in the first place.

Okay, so you are now backing away from your original concept that opposition to X is responsible for the cause of X. This is a good thing, because that statement was completely indefensible. I suspect that you started to see that after you posted it.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

So should we do away with the laws? That would be pretty silly.

Of course not, didn't see that TLAM even said that, but it's silly to create more laws when we don't enforce laws on the books. This has become the politically correct thing to do, sounds good, does nothing. Honest people don't need more laws when government won't enforce the ones that exist, moreso when they infringe on the rights of law abiding people.

[Platapus]

Sorry to hijack the thread BACK to the original post, but,

What is the opinion of our members on whether that body is the cop or not?

This guy knows what cops know and he knows what cops will do.

Seems pretty lucky that he was so easily tracked to this cabin when he was on the lamm so long. And this tactically skilled former cop barricades himself in a building (cops, even crazy ex cops, should know that is not a good tactic) especially with no hostages.

Pretty lucky that this baddie made this very convenient mistake.

Cabin catches on fire (he would know about the tear gas fire probability) and there is body discovered that may take weeks to positively identify.

Pretty lucky.

This baddie was crazy like a fox. Be a real kick in the butt if the body turns out to be someone else.

I hope the search is still going on, but I fear that the police have stopped/scaled way down upon the discovery of the body.

Possibility just what this baddie also knows that the cops would do.

To me, until the body is positively identified, the baddie is still presumed on the Lamm.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Of course not, didn't see that TLAM even said that, but it's silly to create more laws when we don't enforce laws on the books. This has become the politically correct thing to do, sounds good, does nothing. Honest people don't need more laws when government won't enforce the ones that exist, moreso when they infringe on the rights of law abiding people.

I didn't say that he did. I posed the question rhetorically.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetorical

[Armistead]

Most reports show he wasn't that highly trained, in fact, he shot himself in the hand during police training. He has no special skills other than the average cop. He did well cowardly killing people, but when on the run, he started making many mistakes, got trapped and is now toast...Simply, it's his body.