Life and Debt: A Greek Tragedy (merged)

[Skybird]

Kongo Otto, the problem is this damn thing called globalised economy. The German economy and the economies of the others are closely tied and interwoven, causing plenty and plenty of bilateral feedbacks. The finance market made it even worse.

So while I have voiced criticism, I do not agree with this simplified view. I understand the anger, however. Yiur remark on the Greek middlefinger holds some truth - which is why Diopos and me ran into each other repeatedly, since I see it erected into the sky, and he claims it either is not so, or is an act of self-defence.

The fundament of present crisis is simple by structure, but complex in symptoms, and too many profiteers are allowed to still benefit from delaying needed, hard solutions: rich elites, bankers, banks, politicians, big ecohjomy business and it's lobbyists. These all work against solving the problematic present, since they suck it's blood and enjoy it, like ticks.

A signle tick must not be a threatening danger. But when they swarm all about your body and sit on your skin close by close, then you have a really big problem.

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by Skybird

So while I have voiced criticism, I do not agree with this simplified view. I understand the anger, however. Yiur remark on the Greek middlefinger holds some truth - which is why Diopos and me ran into each other repeatedly, since I see it erected into the sky, and he claims it either is not so, or is an act of self-defence.

Hi Skybird,
yes it's a very simplified view, but it's more a picture of anger than a real view of the things.
I'm living from a disability pension and from part time work and because the disability pension (for my Service time) is from an other country than Germany i have to pay taxes for it, also for my Part time work (but that's ok).
Yes angry i am, i'm angry that the german taxpayer has to pay the Dinner bills for other people, which lied, swindled and frauded at least for the last 20 years.
It makes me angry that i have to pay taxes which are happily given to every fraudulent government around europe who meant the Euro is a big self service outlet.
I still say: give 'em the boot and sho 'em the door.
You know the German say:
"Besser ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende"
(Better an end with terror than terror without an end)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kongo Otto

Hi Skybird,
yes it's a very simplified view, but it's more a picture of anger than a real view of the things.
I'm living from a disability pension and from part time work and because the disability pension (for my Service time) is from an other country than Germany i have to pay taxes for it, also for my Part time work (but that's ok).
Yes angry i am, i'm angry that the german taxpayer has to pay the Dinner bills for other people, which lied, swindled and frauded at least for the last 20 years.
It makes me angry that i have to pay taxes which are happily given to every fraudulent government around europe who meant the Euro is a big self service outlet.
I still say: give 'em the boot and sho 'em the door.
You know the German say:
"Besser ein Ende mit Schrecken, als ein Schrecken ohne Ende"
(Better an end with terror than terror without an end)

I see, and - though not for the same and very personal reasons of yours - I share your anger. If anything this should be clear by my rants about the EU and politicians, right?! Additional to the saying you quote - which I also agree with, I would say that the sin of people is nopt to be born rich, maybe, but to assume this welath gioves them special rights and these people being unable to truly value and appreciate the wealth they live in, instead always wanting more, and more. And more. And thinking this were their natural right tzo take from others.

For whom enough is not enough, nothing will ever be enough.

Are you a vet having migrated to Germany? A Brit, or American?

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Are you a vet having migrated to Germany? A Brit, or American?

No i'm German.

[Skybird]

Paul Krugman's simplistic take on the Euro crisis

Germany's fate now is in the hand of others (from Octobre 2011)

[joea]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That was no start - that was a provoked reaction.


Well, you Greeks seem to vote them into power time and again. Since 40 years and more.

And your guns that somebody will aim elsewhere, hm. You maintain the largest battke tank armada in European NATO, only the Yanks have more MBTs, and most of these tanks you ordered voluntarily, only on the latest tranch the German government demanded you stick to the deal. But most of your tanks are unarmed because your voted politicians managed to not order the needed ammunition. So no matter where you aim your guns - it probably fails to leave a lasting impression.

Your finance minister, btw, has just demanded a third bailout, just days ago. Obviously his former claim that now, finally, all numbers are true, are honest and are brought to light in full, once again was a lie. And whom do you expect to agree to according payments? Us stupid Nazis here in Nazi Germany who are respon sible for all your woes and worries and who stgarted to balk back when you started to call the crminals and Nazis.

As I said in the posting earlier, I fully understand the cataclysmic nature of the international finance system and how it wreaks havoc, and you can see in my remarks that I do not like it one bit, and do not defend it. I also said that what pisses me about Greece was not it's debts, but it's unwillingness to see its own share of respiksnibility, and always pointing fingers at others, and expecting those hands to help that it spits on at the same time. In other words, what pisses me is the attitude that you just once again has demonstrated. I hold German voters responsible for the votes they cast. I do the same for Greek voters who happily arranged themselves with he corruption and dilettantism since decades.

The stupid leadership, the dysfunctional structure of a society - always is an image of the stupidity of the people who voted for this system, and tolerated the structures of society so long that they could turn dysfunctional. That is true for all the Western nations. And it is true for Greece as well. And the merits of Greece in the past, millenia ago, are history lessons only. No Greek alive has any right to claim credit for what was done in culture and philosophy by foreign people who have lived 80 generations ago. So save me with the pride and greatness of Greece. That is just dead ruins and dust in the wind.

Leave the Euro. Get your own currency, and are free to manipulate your currency to your liking. This step would do punishing damage to the ECB, no worry, we are not in for getting a cheap ride when letting you go - quiotew the opposite. Stop being a lamenting burden for ewverybody, and stop calling others responsible for your very own egoism and your very own failures. Nobody forced you to join the Euro, nobody forced you to vote your fraudsters into office, nobody forced you to gain entrance into the Euro on the basis of lies and forged statistics. Your elected leaders did it, you voted for them, and when they did you all aplauded becasue you thought you had married the big money that from then on you could suck in like babies drink milk. Agreed, many others did think this way, too. But for your decisions, others are not responsible, but only you yourself are.

So, save me your laments and accusations.

BTW, if you have a qualified education and profession that is in need, you are welcomed in Germany still. German business says they are seeking employees with qualification in several branches. Just Greeks lecturing us on why it is our duty to pay for Greece and that we are Nazis if we don't - that is something you better do not do over here currently. Could upset people quite easily, could maybe even get you into trouble here and there. Because especially in the working class many people are fed up with such kind of talking.

Hmm sorry to bump up this thread-I do tend to avoid these as I am sick of attitudes and stereotypes on both sides, the last part seems a bit like a threat. I do acknowledge your attitude is not sparing of any nation or group including your own-I just want to say I disagree with the bold part. At least, this might be a good point for another thread. You cannot I think expect people to ignore their heritage-both the good and the bad. We cannot take credit or blame-but have a special responsibility to highlight the dark spots and the light and learn from both-and this of course applies to taking care of physical heritage.

In terms of today's crisis well, the recent past is of more import here. I am not optimistic but can only hope something better can be built over the long term.

[Skybird]

That was something I gave as a reply in an earlier thread, and did again here. It is due to the fact that some weeks ago there were Greek poltiicians raising complains and criticism of the ge rman by explicitly pointing out what a great history Greece has, and that this pride resulting is something that forbids the german arguments and demands. I agree that it had a great past culture, and that it had massively influenced Europe. My own thinking is basing fundamentally on philosphical and intellectual traditions and principles whose roots were founded by Greek philosophers.

Bad news is: they all are dead. Since millenia. Can'T ask them anything today anymore. Can't give them a public office.

History is just this: history. The facts were formed back then - today's people have no merits in having participated in their creation, for it happened nbefore today's people's times. And living with one'S head stuck in the far away past, never is a good thing. Because the present does not go away.

What there is in merits and resources today is what decides Greece's fate in the present. For the gold medal at the olympic games at the times of Rome you cannot buy Greek relief today anymore. Plato'S fame does not earn present Greece any respectability today anymore. And ancient ruins are just this: ruins of something long since gone.


Also, the history of Greece is not that shiny in completeness at all. I read historians commenting like that the past of Greece is the best hint so far why Greece does not function as a state in the present, and in the forseeable future. I mean its administration is hopelessly dysfunctional, there are no registers, not even legal taxes can be collectd and overwtched in final totals, npobody knows what is happening, and the bureaucracy is hopelessly blown up in size. It just does not function, and nthat'S why things are today like they are. It has no tradition of being a functioning state.

If you understand German, I can try to find an according essay again from maybe half a year ago, from a German newspaper I think. But I need to find it first, and have clue by whom it was and where I had found it. Also, the ancient era of Greece also showed how democracy in the Greek city states went wrong time and again, corruption taking over and messing things up. Critical historians would replace the label of Greece as "cradle of democracy" with "cradle of corruption and dysfunctional state administration". The problems Greece has today, have a tradition that reaches back centuries and centuries and centuries. The EU suffers from extremley heavy wishful thinking here.

Which is another reason why I am very pessimistic about Greece.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Critical historians would replace the label of Greece as "cradle of democracy" with "cradle of corruption and dysfunctional state administration". The problems Greece has today, have a tradition that reaches back centuries and centuries and centuries.

Please give me the names of these historians (I don't read German unfortunately) - anyway it appears to be more stereotyping, just as wrong as saying "Germans are naturally militaristic" IMO. I am really convinced there are folks who are happy to see these kinds of divisions arise between peoples.

I think I better limit my participation in these kind of threads.

[Skybird]

I see if I remember and find those articles. Can'T promise, I do not keep records on my surfing.

What I recall right now by memory is Herrfried Münkler, professor for politics in Berlin, making remarks on corruption levels in ancient Athens eroding democratic principles, the dialogue with the Meliers as described by Thukydides being exemplary how empires cannot afford not to react to even minor challenges only, and democratic structures in ancient Greek city states different to Athen repeatedly being threatend and eroded by corruption. The part over the Meliers probably was in his book about the rise and fall of empires, the other stuff I believe to recall to have been a comprehensive essay online somwhere, or a book-excerpt online.

Keegan, Huntington, Creveld and Kennedy it were not, I'm sure. Just saying that since I mentioned all these repeatedly.

Joe, I try to avoid stereotyping. I open fire at the eU, at European nations, at the US, and at Germany. I have no intention to make an exception from the rule with Greece. And that Greece is far left behind in corruption indices, is a fact. You can check the statistics and nation rankings at Transparency International, for example, they update their index at least once a year. In Europe, corruption is worse only in Bulgaria, they said last time I looked. That is not meant as an insult, I just call the facts by their names. Sweet-talking about and glossing over a very bad status quo will not help anyone - not Greece's creditors, nor Greece itself. As we foriegners see it, Greece has gotten away with cheating far too long, and now the mess is as big as it is as a coinsequent result. It is no surprise, and it is no plague that fell out of the blue sky into man'S realm.

[Skybird]

No luck in my search so far, but I found this which is kind of a summary of the essay I am after.
The author Richard Wagner was born in Rumania, moved to Germany, and was/is journalist, independant writer and author.

This piece is no attempt to get away in a cheap way, Joea. I find it is indeed a very good description of historic processes that led to a shattered national mentality and to the forming of a nation named Greece not before some 100 years ago. The website I found it at, is one of my prferred sites to visit, against the mainstream, but with some very solid, reasonable minds writing and posting there. And politically often very incorrect, which is great.

Ein Protektorat für Griechenland

Das Missverständnis beginnt damit, dass man mit Griechenland eine große Zeit verbindet. Kein Nachrichtenbild ohne Akropolis. Der Westen hält das Land nicht nur für einen Ausläufer der Antike, sondern gleich für einen Repräsentanten dieser Hochkulturphantasie. Was er sich selbst symbolisch angeeignet hat, hält er insgesamt für symbolisch transportierbar.
Griechenland aber ist nicht Griechenland. Es ist es nie gewesen. Das heutige Griechenland gibt es seit dem frühen 19. Jahrhundert und seine Traditionen beruhen auf dem Bekenntnis zur Ostkirche und zu deren politischer Ausmalung, zu Byzanz. Byzanz war, als ideeller und realer Mittelpunkt der Orthodoxie, nie an Reformen beteiligt, weder an kirchlichen noch an weltlichen.
Die zweite Prämisse für das Wesen des heutigen Griechenland stellt eine jahrhundertelange osmanische Herrschaft dar, die, ähnlich wie auf dem Balkan, mentalitätszerstörerisch wirkte, indem sie den gesamten Raum, einschließlich Griechenland, von der westlichen Entwicklung seit der Renaissance abgeschnitten hat.
Auch in Griechenland gab es im 19. Jahrhundert, getragen von der Welle europäischer Gedankenflüge und des Kontaktes mit diesen, eine ausgeprägte nationale Idee. Mehr aber auch nicht. Der Unterschied zwischen der Nationalvorstellung, wie sie im Westen Fuß fassen konnte und jener im Osten Europas ist einfach: Die einen hatten zwingende Gründe und Vorgaben durch Industrialisierung und laufende Auswertung der Schriftkultur, die anderen hatten Träume. Griechenland gehörte zu den Träumern.
Nun liebt man bekanntlich die Träumer nirgends so sehr als im Westen Europas. Sie sind dort früh zur kollektiven Fantasie gestoßen. Die französische Revolution hat den Hang zur Imagination noch verstärkt und die Romantik hat ihres dazu beigetragen, dass die Folklore über den Helden diesen zu einer der wichtigsten Imaginations- und Denkfiguren der westlichen Öffentlichkeit machen konnte. Die Kämpfer für Freiheit und Gerechtigkeit wurden spätestens mit der Einführung der Presse zu Serienhelden gekürt. So wurde der Rebell zum Inidvidualisten.
Dieser Hang des Westens, die Realität durch die Imagination zu ergänzen und es zu goutieren, kann dem Abendland nichts anhaben, und kommt zunächst einmal dem östlichen Rand Europas zugute. Er hilft den Stillstand der osmanischen Herrschaft zu überwinden. Die das wollten, waren kleine Gruppen aus der einheimischen Oberschicht, die aufgrund ihrer Privilegien und Besitztümer den Westen kennen gelernt hatten.
Ihre Chance war die geopolitische Situation im Europa des 19. Jahrhunderts. Die Zerstrittenheit der sehr verschiedenen Großmächte. Für Länder wie Griechenland war der zukünftige Zerfall des Osmanischen Reiches entscheidend, und das in Verbindung mit den Interessen Russlands an den Dardanellen, dem Flotten-Zugang vom Schwarzen Meer in die Ägäis, sowie den Mittelmeerplänen der westlichen Kolonialakteure, deren Ziel es war, die osmanische Herrschaft zu beenden, um näher an die Rohstoffe des vorderen Orient, zu kommen.
Fantasien und Interessen des Westens brachten die Griechen in die Rolle der Freiheitskämpfer. Ihr Image entstand nicht aus der eigenen Situation, sondern aus deren Instrumentalisierung. Ihre Chance bestand nicht darin, einen lang gehegten kollektiven Wunsch zu verwirklichen, sondern die instrumentalisierte Situation zu nutzen.
So hatte der Vorgang von Anfang an mehr mit seiner Darstellung als mit der in ihm enthaltenen Wahrheit zu tun. Schlimmer aber ist, folgenreicher, dass die Griechen, wie die Balkanvölker insgesamt, lernten, wie man sich angesichts der Großmachtinteressen am besten durchmogelt, und von den Divergenzen und Konflikten zwischen den Großmächten profitiert bzw. buchstäblich Kapital daraus schlagen kann.
Griechenland war nicht nur keine ganz gewöhnliche Demokratie, wie es ab und zu gesagt wird, es war nicht einmal eine nach modernen Kriterien installierte Gesellschaft. Die Institutionen waren Scheininstitutionen, flankiert von der dazugehörenden Verwaltungskorruption. Und das wichtigste: Griechenland lebte nie von der wirtschaftlichen Leistung, es lebte von seiner geopolitischen Lage. Solange es gegen das Osmanische Reich ging, war es Brückenkopf für Russland und für die Entente, im Kalten Krieg war es unverzichtbar für die Sicherung der Südostflanke der NATO. Es gab stets einen Grund, Griechenland zu alimentieren.
Griechenland ist ein Opfer von 1989 geworden. Das Ende des Kalten Krieges war nicht nur die Stunde der Freiheit in Europa, sondern für nicht wenige, die sich in den symbolischen Schützengräben bequem eingerichtet hatten, auch die Stunde der Wahrheit. Griechenland hatte gewissermaßen ein ähnliches Problem wie das Tito-Jugoslawien. Der Staatshaushalt war gar nicht mit eigenen Mitteln zu erwirtschaften, wurde aber von den Supermächten stillschweigend ausgeglichen.
Die heutige Katastrophe, in die Griechenland geraten ist, beruht auf einem Missverständnis zwischen EU und Griechenland. Griechenlands Beitritt zur EU und zur Eurozone ist mit einem klassischen politischen Denken in Athen zu erklären. Man schließt sich dem Imperium an. Das Missverständnis war, die EU als klassisches Imperium zu betrachten. Die EU hat zwar eine imperiale Rolle, aber sie legt Wert darauf, dieses Imperiale selbst zu definieren und es erst, wenn es als Notwendigkeit erscheint, zuzulassen.
Der Unterschied zur klassischen Konstellation im Europa des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts besteht vor allem darin, dass die Fronten der Welt nicht mehr durch Europa verlaufen, dass Europa kein Schauplatz der Konflikte mehr ist. In welcher Weise sollte Griechenland sich in Brüssel und Straßburg nützlich machen können? Es gibt keinen einzigen sinnvollen Grund, den Staat Griechenland, wenn er nicht lebensfähig ist, weiter am Leben zu halten. Jede Nation hat zwar nach europäischen Vorstellungen, spätestens mit der französischen Revolution, das Recht auf einen eigenen Staat, aber nicht das Recht auf europäische Standards, wenn sie nicht durch eigene Leistung aufgebracht werden können.
Es gibt keinen Anspruch auf die Mitgliedschaft in der Eurozone, es gibt nur das Recht auf einen Antrag zu einer solchen Mitgliedschaft. In der Griechenland Frage müssen alle Beteiligten die Lüge erkennen und überwinden können. Die Wahrheit ist brutal. Entweder man schließt Griechenland aus der Eurozone aus und riskiert ein Chaos im Lande oder man stellt es unter eine direkte Verwaltung der Europäischen Union. Es wäre eine Art Konkursverwaltung. Damit kollidiert man aber mit dem ausgeprägtem griechischen Nationalbewusstsein und bekommt es ebenfalls mit Unruhen zu tun. Kurzum, wer eine Ordnung ins Griechische System bringen will, wird, so oder so, auf große Schwierigkeiten stoßen. Also sollte man das Protektorat, als effektivstes Mittel des Krisenmanagements in Erwägung ziehen.

bold markings by me.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.p..._griechenland/

[Diopos]

Would really to see that text in english. Don't want to comment on it based on auto-translation.

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[Skybird]

In very brief, the main points:

The West mistakes the role of Greece in the ancient era and overestimates it, because it'S cultural heritage infleunced the West in later times. In fact the ancient era is so much more than only Greece.

Modern Greece exists since only early 19th century, and in the ancient era it was not one state, but man cities. Modern Greece's traditions base on orientation towards the Bycantine tradition and Eastern church, both of which were not known for being reformistic (Skybird: Bycantine was blocked "to death" by administrative inability during the centuries-long war with the Persian Sassanides) in relgious or poltical ways.

The centuries-long occupation by Islam had a mentality-destroying effect on Greece, like it had the same effect on the balkans. The area was sealed off from the West and the Rennaissance. The differenc ebetween weas that the West's national self-understzanding was driven by the puishiung industrialisation and the onpoing interaction with content and ideas, whereas Greece was locked in Islamic self-paralysis and fatalism and just had dreams instead of civilisational, developing needs motivating it.

The Greek more and more grew into the mentality of resitence fihgters instead, against the Osmans. European sympathy for dreams and ideals (especially during the German Romantik era )helped to earn Greece such smypathy for itself. This easily leads to transfiguration. Only few, small groups, "elites", managed to get into contact with the unfolding cultural deveopement in Europe, but these elites left the rest of the Greek people more or less behind, isolated. You see that until today, especially in the current crisis.

Greece never was able to live by itself, economically, industrially, and it never had resources enabling to be a self-maintaining state. It's chance were its geopolitcal position: european colonial powers fighting over dominance in the Mediterranean to gain access to the Orient, the Russians and the Dardanelles, and before all: the fall of the Osman empire. Thus the Greek needed to learn - and excelled in that - to not focus on realsijng the idea of a ntion but to make best use of the situation geopolitics have put them into, and instrumkentalising that to their best advantage. Like the Balkan people, they learned how to opportunistically use the divergences between the great powers for best own profit, and get away with it.

Greece not only was no oridnary democracy like th eothers, it even was no installed/institutionalised society by modern criteria (Skybird: until today the state has no registers in many ministries by which these offices could do administrative work, there is no tax register, nbo house property register, and a significant part of Greek pay their taxes - if they pay taxes! - in farming products instead of money. The list of lacking administrative abilities and characteristics of a modern state goes on and on). Corruption always was high, since auhtorities were incompetent to tackle it, and unwilling, and were not even püroperly installed in themselves.

Greece never lived by its economical power and production (as a state), but its geopoltical position made sure there always were greater powers willing to support it and to make any differences in the balance straight. The state budget never was able to be earned by Greece' own'S economic potential, but the superpowers payed the differences, later the EU. The end of the cold war - for Greece it marked the beginning of the end. 1989 was a disaster for Greece.

Athen, by a classical thinking of always "joining the empire", overlooked that the EU is an empire of a slightly different nature than those before. Also, there currentlxy are no conflict lines drawn through Europe along which conflicts emegre that could give Greece the benefit of presenting itself as a demanded geopolitcal psoition worth to be supported. The interest of the Russians has declined. That of the Americans has gone. That of the EU is dropping, too. Athen simply has nopthign to offer that would motivate other powers to endlessly come up for a hige part of the Greek budget. Greece can no longer play the geopolitcal card like it did in the past almost 200 years.

People have th eright to desire an own state, but they have no right to demand europoean stanbdards if they cannot produce, finance and support these standards by their own productivity and economic power. There is no right for membership in the Eurozone, there is only the right to file an according request for membership - which can be answered with Yes or No.

Only two alternatives for Greece today: either throw it out of the Euro, or to turn it into an protectorate administrated by the EU, which would mean nothing else but a receivership (=Konkursverwaltung). But the latter collides with the strong Greek pride resulting from the Greek-selfunderstanding as "resistence-fighters" as mentioned earlier.

In other words, whatever gets done, it will lead to immense social unrest and conflicts, and big problems.

The author concludes fginally that the protectiorate might be the best option as a form of crisis manage,ment. But when I look at the last time the EU ran a crisis management - Kosovo, Bosnia, Balkan - I have my doubts.

[Diopos]

Thanks Sky for the translation (and the effort ). Comments to follow soon.

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[Oberon]

I'm waiting to see what Hollande is going to do...if he's all talk and no trousers then things will stay the same...but if he bucks the current trend...then things may get...for want of a word that won't incur me an infraction...interesting.

[Skybird]

Headlines today: Netherlands. France. Spain. Czech Republic.

Many money-printing hounds soon catch the German cash cow.

But nobody so far said what should be done once the German cow has been killed and eaten? There will be nobody else to milk anymore.