CAPT Holly Graf gets ‘honorable’ retirement

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It is in their explaination
Is it the old boys network, poofs in the pentagon, preference for officers over enlisted, dykes at sea, modern political correctness gone mad, simple nepotism, typical old school navy.....that site its claims its all of them ...

Agreed. Thats their explanation. I don't know their sources so I'm not qualified to comment whether its correct or not. May I ask what is your explanation?

Originally Posted by Tribesman

so how does that work? Its like saying its a capitalist communist martian from venus who is a sunni jewish bhuddist atheist

I'm absolutely convinced that their editors would like to discuss with you about this intepretation...


This "Graf Case" is strange one and I don't have explanation for it. There are several questions which I need reliable answers before I can even dream of explaining this:
- Why it took so long to anyone to take action?
- At my understanding in U.S. military officer/enlistee retires on that rank where he/she last performed satisfactorily. If that is case then why Ms. Graf retires at rank of captain (O-6)?
- Why board of inquiry recommendation of 'general discharge' was dismissed?
- Why whole process took so long?

Agreed. Thats their explanation. I don't know their sources so I'm not qualified to comment whether its correct or not.

It couldn't be correct as it is plainly self contradictory, as for their sources two you used appear very intertwined and both have the same third source which not only goes through the same self contradictory explanations but also takes her own case and as well as doing the selfcontradictory arguements manages to argue that exactly the opposite is the case....ie the navy is a miscogenistic racist unpolitcally correct dinosaur from the dark ages.

May I ask what is your explanation?

she screwed up and was dealt with in the normal manner.





I would say its probably just the way its done and the way its always been done.

Why it took so long to anyone to take action?

Process, it makes a long drawn out affair.

If that is case then why Ms. Graf retires at rank of captain (O-6)?

She was removed from her position, not demoted.

Why board of inquiry recommendation of 'general discharge' was dismissed

Now thats a question.

[gi_dan2987]

Originally Posted by August

You have evidence of these crimes and you didn't report it to the JAG? Why?

Me and numerous other members within the company and platoon gathered any and all evidence and reported it to JAG ASAP once we reached our demob base at Ft. McCoy, WI. They took the information and claimed to have conducted an investigation, but as soon as we got back to MN (we were MN Army National Guard troops that had been Federally activated for service in Iraq) the company was disbanded and any records regarding the deployment were scrapped except for records on medals and awards earned while in combat.

The commander got promoted to a new unit, and the NCO's in question had no paper trail to follow them back to their respective units within the state once we were back to inactive duty. Beyond that I don't know what became of those individuals. I think it was just swept under the rug.

I found out later that our commander and 1SG were so bad that our deployment had to be cut short even though the 2007 surge was going on at the time. While other units were being extended, we were getting a one way ticket home. We were the hot potato company, nobody wanted us around due to our poor leadership.

That's pretty much the long and short of it. I served as an E4(SPC) Infantryman with B. Co. 1-194, 34th ID (Red Bulls) MNARNG from 2004-2008. I was supposed to be in until 2010, but I took an administrative leave due to complications with my fiance and personal life at the time, and the legal issues surrounding the deployment. The crappy part was they offered the admin discharge, but then used that to void my educational benefits later when I applied for school in 2010.

I've been so disgruntled with the government and Army both for their dastard acts that I've even hated going to the VA for my regular physicals. It just seems as if they've only got one thing they focus on, and that's lining their own pockets and protecting their reputation.

[Platapus]

It still pays to come from the Academy I guess.

Can I get a ring knock from everyone?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

she screwed up and was dealt with in the normal manner.


I would say its probably just the way its done and the way its always been done.

Really? From 20 March 2008 to 13 January 2010 she was the commanding officer of the USS Cowpens and before that, from 20 April 2002 to 6 February 2004 she was the commanding officer of USS Winston S. Churchill. Those incidents for which she was finally relieved of command range from 2002 to 2010 and during that time she was also promoted from commander (O-5) to captain (O-6). Grounding a ship, choking a visiting foreign naval officer, insulting your subordinates, using them as "practice targets"... Are you really seriously telling to me that that this is "business as usual"? If so then evidence please.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Process, it makes a long drawn out affair.

If you mean process after relieving her from command then I agree that its possible (check case below). Otherwise, no.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

She was removed from her position, not demoted.

Demotion and determination of retirement rank are not same thing. Retirement rank is (as said before) determined by what was the last rank where person performed satisfactorily. Here is example: Air Force Colonel (O-6) Michael D. Murphy, a lawyer, was forced to retire after it was revealed that when he joined military in 1980's he didn't tell that his law license in Texas was suspended and propably going to be revoked. When he retired he retired in rank where he last performed satisfactorily. In his case that meant day when his license was revoked by Texas authorities. Guess what was his retirement rank (and rank by which he gets pension)? First Lieutenant (O-2). Full story is available here.

I will return to this in morning when I'm awake again. Good night (or day).

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by August

You have evidence of these crimes and you didn't report it to the JAG? Why?

I agree with you on that.Things are never fair in the military nor anywhere else for that matter.I am thinking more of cases where an example was made on someone where they really should have received a lesser punishment.

The things mentioned by gi_dan2987 if they are true then someone failed to do the correct action that should have been reported to the CO and then if he did nothing further up the chain very few units are fully loaded with bad apples but a unit could have too many people who do not take action when they should who is self serving then the person who did the crime or the one who did not report the crime?

@ gi_dan2987 How did you get denied you veteran rights? You served well past the requirement and you served well past the length of time to receive an honorable discharge you should have received a hardship discharge unless you got a general discharge which you could only receive for poor behavior something does not sound correct you should have revived an honorable discharge and the reason listed should have been hardship.I no legal expert on this but something sounds way off you need to speak with a lawyer or someone who has in depth knowledge about this stuff.

As to the GI bill:
"In all cases, the ADMGIB expires 10 years after discharge or retirement. To be eligible, one must have an honorable discharge (general, under honorable conditions do not qualify). To retain MGIB benefits after discharge, in most cases, one must serve at least 36 months of active duty, if they had a 4 year active duty contract, or at least 24 months of active duty, if they signed up for a 2 or 3 year active duty contract (there are some exceptions to this rule)". Surely you got the 36 months from 2004-2008.You need to speak with VA.If you should have recived an honorable which I am pretty sure you should have then you will be eligible.You need to appeal your general discharge and get it changed.This is all assuming that you did not have bad conduct during your service in which case they can give you a general discharge but not for a hardship reason alone I am not sure how they determine honorable vs. general on hardship discharge for financial reasons.You need to find out for sure because if it was incorrect it can be changed.

Kraznyi.

Are you really seriously telling to me that that this is "business as usual"? If so then evidence please.

Look at the pile of cases in your provided links(OK avoid the real crazy link as people are getting the same treatment because of who they are and who thay are not and what they did and what they didn't and because the people are this that and the other or all three at once while being neither while the other people are this that and the other too )...which means you have already provided all the "business as usual" evidence you could possibly require.

If you mean process after relieving her from command then I agree that its possible (check case below). Otherwise, no.

As I said check out any of the others, or as you "check below" provide one that is even more drawn out and goes on for decades then I must ask how you can possibly say "Otherwise, no" at all?

Demotion and determination of retirement rank are not same thing. Retirement rank is (as said before) determined by what was the last rank where person performed satisfactorily. Here is example:

Look at your examples, he was never able to perform satisfactorily in the job he was assigned as he never fitted the bill so he goes out with the same rank he had when he got the job he couldn't perform, she however was able to perform satisfactorily on every occasion when she wasn't screwing up.

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I no legal expert on this but something sounds way off you need to speak with a lawyer or someone who has in depth knowledge about this stuff.

Agree 100%. If you were denied your benefits without good reason you can petition to get them back. See your towns veterans representative. He can help you.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by August

Agree 100%. If you were denied your benefits without good reason you can petition to get them back. See your towns veterans representative. He can help you.

I know that some government and VA can be a pain but you can find people that will help you many VA employees are vets themselves and they will be very willing to help you the best they can if you have be done wrong.Personally I have had no trouble with my local VA reps and even if you do you can go somewhere else there is a VA office in every county in the US just be honest with them.

[gi_dan2987]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

I know that some government and VA can be a pain but you can find people that will help you many VA employees are vets themselves and they will be very willing to help you the best they can if you have be done wrong.Personally I have had no trouble with my local VA reps and even if you do you can go somewhere else there is a VA office in every county in the US just be honest with them.

I just dug up my paperwork. I guess I didn't really read into it all that hard when I received it at the time. I was told I was getting an administrative discharge, which I assumed would be an honorable for hardship, when in reality they gave me a General under honorable conditions discharge. I guess that's why I'm not getting my GI Bill. I wonder if I can get any education benefits at all.

I have a 40% disability from my service in Iraq, and I never went AWOL from my time on active duty. I have medals of commendation and the paperwork to prove it, but because I wanted out once I got back on inactive guard status, the commander told me one thing and did another. I don't know what I did to deserve that, but I suppose not doing one weekend a month for the remaining two years was bad enough. You see I've just been trying to start my life with a fresh slate. That time overseas is time I want to forget, including my time in the Army and dealing with the VA. I want to attend school for business finance with a minor in accounting and taxes. That's all I want, and I'll use what tools I have to get it I suppose, GI bill or not.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gi_dan2987

II was told I was getting an administrative discharge, which I assumed would be an honorable for hardship, when in reality they gave me a General under honorable conditions discharge. I guess that's why I'm not getting my GI Bill. I wonder if I can get any education benefits at all.

I too, recieved a 'General under Honorable Conditions' discharge, but I did recieve full Veteran's benefits. I wonder what changed and when?

[gi_dan2987]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I too, recieved a 'General under Honorable Conditions' discharge, but I did recieve full Veteran's benefits. I wonder what changed and when?

Yeah I don't know. All I know is that the government sure gets tight fingers with their pennies when veterans come a knockin. But boy when it's tax time, johnny middle class better not skimp uncle sam his due or else. Its all about money retention. tax taken-tax paid=profit margin. goal of US government is to increase the bottom line, that can only be done by increasing exhibit A, while decreasing Exhibit B.

Uncle Sam, the VA, and the Army can all kiss my rear. I'm so sick and tired of tiptoeing through the tulips with these jerks. I just wanna start my civilian life on a clean slate, and put Iraq and the Army behind me. I got a steady girlfriend now (first one since my fiance and I split back in 2008) and things are going well. I'm going to school even if I have to do it the civilian way.

To be honest, playing Silent Hunter has really helped my sanity during these times of unemployment. Thinking hard about something other than what's going on in my own life tends to calm me down. I put a lot of effort into devising mathematical formulas for fancy ways of obtaining fire solutions.

By the way Sailor Steve, were you a Navy man?

[Stealhead]

Sailor Steve what does it say under your character of service? You where in the Navy during the end years of Vietnam right? You may have been part of a Reduction in Force (RIF it might say on your 214).Or if you received a medical I think they are listed as general discharges but you get full benefits.I am basing this on info found on VA sites though you'd have to ask them.Not to be asking too personal a question you don't have to answer but I think you can have an idea the answer to your question.

gi_dan2987 should speak with the VA though if you explain to them your situation they may be able to help you I am pretty sure you can have a General Discharge that resulted in loss of certain benefits appealed to an honorable I am not sure though you will have to talk to some people at the VA and find out.It is very possible that someone should have told you to appeal your discharge after a certain amount time but forgot to tell you lucky for you there is no limit to how long it can have been after getting discharged to appeal but you want to hurry if it gets changed the 10 year time limit for the GI Bill might still apply.I did my final out processing at MacDill AFB and they really sucked thank god the VA person and the personal flight in Germany was very good.

Do not let anyone screw you out what you should rightfully be receiving that stuff is your right do not let anyone cheat you out of it.Even if it is frustrating you get one on them if you push through it.Get into contact with some veterans groups as well they might know the people who can help you.

[gi_dan2987]

I appreciate the info. I'll push ahead and see what I can do. Does anybody know why this site is all in German? Or did something get switched around in my settings?

[Falkirion]

Are the writers on militarycorruption.com all women hating men? Very one sided tone. But then thats journalism these days, you either get one side or the other, not the impartial writing that you need to make up your own mind. Just a thing about the press that irks me.