Gilad Shalit: Israel and Palestinians welcome deal - Page 2

Osmium Steele · 10-13-11, 02:09 PM

Quote:

It's a victory for Israel, because Shalit is still alive.

"Hey, gimme back my dollar!"

"OK. It'll cost you the gun you took from me, remember? When I shot up your house, killed your daughter, blew up your workplace, and destoyed your only car?"

"Here's your gun."

"Here's your dollar. Don't feel bad. It is a victory for you. I didn't burn your dollar did I?"

Some victory...

August · 10-13-11, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osmium Steele

"Hey, gimme back my dollar!"

"OK. It'll cost you the gun you took from me, remember? When I shot up your house, killed your daughter, blew up your workplace, and destoyed your only car?"

"Here's your gun."

"Here's your dollar. Don't feel bad. It is a victory for you. I didn't burn your dollar did I?"

"I guess not"

*Points gun* "Now gimme back that dollar and do you have any more family I can kill?"

Penguin · 10-13-11, 02:23 PM

"The pull the trigger, you won't get my dollar bill!"
*grins because he knows the Saturday night special he gave to the attacker is primed to blow him up*

Seriously, Israel showed that they care for the life of a single member of their armed forces. Don't the US Marines follow the same code of honor, to leave no one behind?
It's not they they didn't try other options before.

August · 10-13-11, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

"The pull the trigger, you won't get my dollar bill!"
*grins because he knows the Saturday night special he gave to the attacker is primed to blow him up*

Seriously, Israel showed that they care for the life of a single member of their armed forces. Don't the US Marines follow the same code of honor, to leave no one behind?
It's not they they didn't try other options before.

You don't see how trading one hostage for thousands might motivate them to try this again?

Penguin · 10-13-11, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

You don't see how trading one hostage for thousands might motivate them to try this again?

Maybe, but exchanges to bad conditions happened before and will happen again.
They even exchanged corpses of fallen IDF soldiers against Palestinian prisoners.

What is the alternative: "Kill him, we don't negotiate. We don't give a crap about our own!"
This message can be even more devastating in long terms, at least for Israel's own soldiers.
And as said before: Israel tried to get Shalit out by other means before, sadly with no success. So maybe after 5 years (1/5th of Shalit's life) it was time to walk a little off the beaten path.

It also hurts my stomach to know that many of the released prisoners are hardcore terrorist bastards, we should have no illusions there: those are the people Hamas cares for and wants to have out, not little Palestinians who could not pay a parking ticket.

_dgn_ · 10-13-11, 03:04 PM

A simple reflexion : for a French citizen, it's a crime to fight for or in the army of another country. He is in this case considered as "soldier of fortune" and condemned.

But for Gilad Shalit, who has also the French citizenship, belonging to the IDF seems to be normal to the French authorities, even to the President Sarkozy (however Chief of the French Armies), who was active for his release.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Patriotism is not any more what it was ...

Cheers.

August · 10-13-11, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

What is the alternative: "Kill him, we don't negotiate. We don't give a crap about our own!"

Yes if it comes to that.

Quote:

This message can be even more devastating in long terms, at least for Israel's own soldiers.

A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.

kraznyi_oktjabr · 10-13-11, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.

IDF is conscription based force. I can understand that requirement you write about from volunteers who enlisted knowing this requirement. I can't expect this without conditions from conscript soldier.

In my opinion for conscript army just letting captured personell to die is very bad thing for morale.

Penguin · 10-13-11, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Yes if it comes to that.

A clear line, we'll have to disagree on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.

That remains to be seen. I first hope that the exchange runs smoothly, and I hope your prophecies won't come true - though I frankly don't have the most optimistic feeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _dgn_

A simple reflexion : for a French citizen, it's a crime to fight for or in the army of another country. He is in this case considered as "soldier of fortune" and condemned.

Dual citizenships and all its problems are a reality in today's Europe. Germany also doesn't have it by law, but in reality they exist. Most countries handle it that you have to do your service only in one country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _dgn_

But for Gilad Shalit, who has also the French citizenship, belonging to the IDF seems to be normal to the French authorities, even to the President Sarkozy (however Chief of the French Armies), who was active for his release.

[I]"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Too bad that Sakorzy didn't care to get out Stéphane Taponier or Hervé Ghesquièr - or are they also Jews?

Quote:

Originally Posted by _dgn_

Patriotism is not any more what it was ...

He fought for the country in which he was born and raised. Isn't this patriotic?

_dgn_ · 10-13-11, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

t's a victory for the truth, as the world can see what Hamas is: a bunch of criminals who do not recognize any rules of international law, but demand it for themselves.

Who don' t recognize any rules of international law :

- with sea piracy (attack of the Gaza Aid convoy : 24 volunteers killed by the Isrealian forces) ?
- with air piracy (violation of the Jordanian and Saudi airspaces, followed by an air strike of the Osirak reactor in Iraq : a French man was killed by the Isrealian planes) ?
- with land piracy (bombing of an UNO school in Jabaliya camp : 42 people killed by the Israelian artillerists) ?

About "terrorist bastards" killed by the glorious IDF in this school, please see below the 3 young ones:

Who were really the bastards in this case ?

soopaman2 · 10-13-11, 04:01 PM

In the end what is accomplished? The quran still thinks the jews as covenanat breakers, while the jews still think they are gods chosen people.

We trade you some of our terrorists for yours.

Sure call me anti semetic (which would make sense, arabs are considered semetic peoples as well.) I just wish they would stop fighting over old rocks, and the only patch in the middle east with little oil.

Or an even better name to call me, fans of Woodrow Wilson can appreciate this..Isolationist.

Edit: Somehow this reeks of "America having to get involved" and I am sick of the faux colonialism.

MothBalls · 10-13-11, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Yes if it comes to that.

A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.

I agree. If I was in that situation and knew this deal was about to be made, I would find a way to take away the bargaining chip. Kinda like Spiers said in Band of Brothers, accept the fact that your already dead when you go into battle.

Not to sound like a hero or become a martyr, but I would consider it "in the normal line of duty" to make the sacrifice before letting hundreds of scumbags back on the street.

soopaman2 · 10-13-11, 04:42 PM

Sad it takes a hollywood movie (darn good one) to convey my middle eastern thoughts.

Movie is called Kingdom Of Heaven in case you care.

This thing is old, and predates some of our countries. When Israel was given countryhood they simply took the place of the Christians.

Richard the Lionheart laughs at todays civilized west.

August · 10-13-11, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _dgn_

Who were really the bastards in this case ?

So you're claiming these children were deliberately targeted by Israeli forces? That they said "Oh there's some children, lets get 'em!"?

I ask because the Israelis can provide many examples of their civilians, including children being deliberately targeted and murdered by Palestinian terrorists.

_dgn_ · 10-13-11, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

Dual citizenships and all its problems are a reality in today's Europe. Germany also doesn't have it by law, but in reality they exist. Most countries handle it that you have to do your service only in one country.

I was Officer in the French Army : for me, it's impossible to belong to 2 different fatherlands and to defend both. Only one flag or loyalty : on this point, the French law is clear. And Shalit is out the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin

He fought for the country in which he was born and raised. Isn't this patriotic?

If Shalit was born and raised in Israel and if he want to defend this (or his) country, he his really patriotic. But why becoming French citizen (with particular rights, but also with particular obligations) ? I have a good friend, born in Washington (when his father was in duty in the French Embassy). So he had the 2 nationalities, French and US. But when he was 18, it had to CHOOSE between both. Regular !

About patriotism, it's a devotion to his country, with always a contribution to the general interest. When Sarkozy forgets his statute of President (guarantor of the Constitution and of the Law) and his statute of Chief of the French Armies for profit of particular interest, helping somebody out of the law, but belonging to his community, there is no more patriotism concerning Sarkozy. I naturally think French patriotism.

But Sarkozy was playing his role when being active about Stéphane Taponier or Hervé Ghesquière, French journalists belonging to the Public TV and kidnapped by Taliban.

10-13-11, 04:01 PM	#26
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	In the end what is accomplished? The quran still thinks the jews as covenanat breakers, while the jews still think they are gods chosen people. We trade you some of our terrorists for yours. Sure call me anti semetic (which would make sense, arabs are considered semetic peoples as well.) I just wish they would stop fighting over old rocks, and the only patch in the middle east with little oil. Or an even better name to call me, fans of Woodrow Wilson can appreciate this..Isolationist. Edit: Somehow this reeks of "America having to get involved" and I am sick of the faux colonialism. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

10-13-11, 04:42 PM	#28
soopaman2 Der Alte Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 3,316 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	Sad it takes a hollywood movie (darn good one) to convey my middle eastern thoughts. Movie is called Kingdom Of Heaven in case you care. This thing is old, and predates some of our countries. When Israel was given countryhood they simply took the place of the Christians. Richard the Lionheart laughs at todays civilized west. __________________ If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons. -Winston Churchill- The most fascinating man in the world.

10-13-11, 02:23 PM	#18
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	"The pull the trigger, you won't get my dollar bill!" grins because he knows the Saturday night special he gave to the attacker is primed to blow him up Seriously, Israel showed that they care for the life of a single member of their armed forces. Don't the US Marines follow the same code of honor, to leave no one behind? It's not they they didn't try other options before.

10-13-11, 03:04 PM	#21
_dgn_ Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: France Posts: 122 Downloads: 331 Uploads: 0	A simple reflexion : for a French citizen, it's a crime to fight for or in the army of another country. He is in this case considered as "soldier of fortune" and condemned. But for Gilad Shalit, who has also the French citizenship, belonging to the IDF seems to be normal to the French authorities, even to the President Sarkozy (however Chief of the French Armies), who was active for his release. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Patriotism is not any more what it was ... Cheers.