No clergy at 9/11=Terrorist Victory

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

CCIP - since when does "clergy" equate to "bible thumping fundies"? Clergy is a term that applies to Xtian and non-Xtian religious leaders equally. A muslim imam would be considered clergy. As would a rabbi, etc.

There has been enough "singling out" of Xtianity in this forum for negativity. Lets not take something that is not just about Xtianity and use it as a way to attack a faith that many millions of people adhere to.

Well, perhaps my answer was a bit extreme there, sorry about that. I think I did make an assumption that wasn't necessarily fair, and misread the term. I should also point out that I'm not attacking Christianity and am in fact Christian myself.

However unless the clergy presence is multi-faith and low-key, I'm in principle against turning this into a religious occasion. If there is a chance that some of those being commemorated would not have wanted it, I think it's better to err on the side of caution. Things like this shouldn't be about appeasing currently-living members of any faith, but about respecting the fallen. I also think given the nature of Yubba's post and the way in which he mentioned 'Islamic terrorist' suggests that my assumption about which clergy he wants present wasn't 100% unfair after all.

[CaptainHaplo]

CCIP - granted on the OP post and thanks for clarifying.

The biggest issue for most is that while this restriction is being placed on the memorial - the same mayor is supporting a mosque in the area. To many that smacks of not only a double standard, but an intent to be "supportive" of the religious rights of a certain group, while restricting the religious rights of others.

One can argue that the two things are entirely distinct, and indeed they are in most ways. However, removing religion from this event also negates the reality that the attacks which costs so many their lives - was religiously motivated. If we fail to recognize that in the memorial - especially after allowing the religion in question to exist in the area - we do a huge dishonor to the fallen. We would remember that they died - while failing to remember WHY they died.

[CCIP]

I think you're right in that there's a whole layer of nasty politics over common sense there anyway, and it's not that I think any way that this ceremony could be be run would please everybody. It's also nothing but empty political correctness to deny that religion played a role in the attacks that day. But at the same time I'm pretty sure more than one muslim person worked at the WTC and area that day, and more than one of them was killed just the same as a member of any other religion.

I think the bottom line is that using the 9/11 anniversary to underline divisions in American society instead of commemorating the real victims and is a disservice to everyone. In fact I fell for that trap myself when I went off on the 'fundies' - just an example of what that sort of polar division does, I guess.

[yubba]

You know the good book says, that we have to forgive, if we are to receive, I'm cool with all, Muslims included, faithes being there, what I'm not cool with, is some public servant thinking he is going to keep God out of it. We The People, One Nation Under God.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Off hand I would say no probably not.

well too bad. otherwise i'd forgive him, disregard and move on

[CaptainMattJ.]

Originally Posted by yubba

You know the good book says, that we have to forgive, if we are to receive, I'm cool with all, Muslims included, faithes being there, what I'm not cool with, is some public servant thinking he is going to keep God out of it. We The People, One Nation Under God.

im not all that cool with god being included. Why include religion? its another excuse to attack people and get attacked emotionally and, in this case, physically. it wasnt solely religious. It was mostly political statements and attacks. They hated America, and it involvement in their regime. They just used Islam to more easily convince people to die for their own gains.

i think religion should be left at home and at church. People seem to take religion everywhere and want to put in into everything.

we shouldnt be united under god, and the phrase was instituted when religion was still very dominant. We should be united in our common goals and morals, not god. If people havent figured it out by now, your god is not going to save you on this earth. You must save yourself.

I also believe that, in all honesty, people should think about when to talk freely about their religion. Speaking so commonly as if everyone is religious or of the same religion would be a waste of breath. unless someone is directly addressing a specific faith, people should just speak in a neutral state about morals or what have you.

Im not saying you were in error or should change your text, but "the good book" and its morals are more common sense then anything else, and should be addressed casually. I too think we should forgive and move on, but from a neutral standpoint

This is just my thoughts. Not necessarily saying that you did anything wrong and am not addressing you directly, but those are just my thoughts.

I really hope OP is drunk...

No, these post have become more frequent when he stopped being drunk all the time.

since when does "clergy" equate to "bible thumping fundies"?

When it is about bible thumping fundies....like in this case.

Clergy is a term that applies to Xtian and non-Xtian religious leaders equally. A muslim imam would be considered clergy. As would a rabbi, etc.

Indeed, can you spot which clergy are objecting in the article?
I wonder what the rabbi in the article says?

'Which faiths should be represented, which are not represented, how does one include everyone?'"

The rabbi hits the nail on the head, equality for all religions pseudo religions and non religious.
Allow all or allow non.
Since allowing all would turn the remembrance ceremony into a three day freak show then they must allow non, all that is needed for inclusion is the moment of private reflection....... just like it has been ever since the tragedy.

I think I did make an assumption that wasn't necessarily fair, and misread the term.

Not at all CCIP. Think again.
Look at the groups involved , it is mainstream fundynuts which are on there, some of those "christian" tosspots should be specificly banned from going anywhere near any 9/11 commemoration after the vile hate filled bile they spewed about that tragic day as it is an insult to the victims and their families.
After all who in their right minds would want some idiot at a ceremony for victims of terrorism who claims terrorism is a punishment for tolerating poofs and pagans?

[AVGWarhawk]

Look at the groups involved , it is mainstream fundynuts which are on there, some of those "christian" tosspots should be specificly banned from going anywhere near any 9/11 commemoration after the vile hate filled bile they spewed about that tragic day as it is an insult to the victims and their families.
After all who in their right minds would want some idiot at a ceremony for victims of terrorism who claims terrorism is a punishment for tolerating poofs and pagans?

Did I miss the article stating Jerehmiah Wright was attending and keynote speaker? Terry Jones will warm the place with book burnings?

Allow all or allow non.

I would venture allowing none is the best path to take. Let everyone involved do their own thing in their own way privately. That should shut everyone up. In fact, why not just all stand silent for a hour then go on home? Now everyone is happy. Why not just skip it? If we can't represent all views/affiliations in this great melting pot why bother at all?

[Oberon]

Needs more Kemal.

[Skybird]

I for once will be happy once the whole mambo-jambo is over. Since weeks, since mid-summer I need to see the planes-into-tower pics and scenes several times a day again, whenever I enter the web and go to a newspaper site, or weatch TV news. I wish I would get a dollar for every time I see it.

It's getting pretty much a worn out a shoe.

Also, it contributes plenty to the intention of terrorism, which is two-fold: to terrorise, and to gain public mass attention. Whenever the pics are on TV, the Al Quaeda team scores one more goal. Additional to the insane costs they have made us to spend due to their actrion: several trillions. Economically seen, calculating own investment versus losses of the enemy, Osama scored the biggest victory in human history, probably.

Still want to run a TV show about it? The tenth anniversary activities going on - are like an Al Quaeda-favouring charity event. They cannot wish for much more, can they.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I for once will be happy once the whole mambo-jambo is over. Since weeks, since mid-summer I need to see the planes-into-tower pics and scenes several times a day again, whenever I enter the web and go to a newspaper site, or weatch TV news. I wish I would get a dollar for every time I see it.

It's getting pretty much a worn out a shoe.

I do tend to agree.

[AVGWarhawk]

You make a good point Skybird.

[jumpy]

Originally Posted by yubba

Islamic terrorist on what must be their most holiest place on earth

Since when did ground0 become a muslim holy place? (or a 'holy place' for that matter?)

For all the assumptions of religious terrorists everywhere, thinking that the former site of the WTC is somehow more holy than say, the 'sacred mosque', or the 'mosque of the prophet', or the 'farthest mosque' in jerusalem, is not only an insulting thing to direct from one who professes religious belief to another who has their own faith, but also demonstrates an astounding level of deliberate ignorance.

[Oberon]

Oh, I predict a lot of hot air against Europeans before long.

Let's not forget guys that this is a very delicate subject for most Americans, who are a predominant force on this board...so let's not derail this thread into a flame war, even if the OP is...yeah...

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I for once will be happy once the whole mambo-jambo is over. Since weeks, since mid-summer I need to see the planes-into-tower pics and scenes several times a day again, whenever I enter the web and go to a newspaper site, or weatch TV news. I wish I would get a dollar for every time I see it.

It's getting pretty much a worn out a shoe.

Also, it contributes plenty to the intention of terrorism, which is two-fold: to terrorise, and to gain public mass attention. Whenever the pics are on TV, the Al Quaeda team scores one more goal. Additional to the insane costs they have made us to spend due to their actrion: several trillions. Economically seen, calculating own investment versus losses of the enemy, Osama scored the biggest victory in human history, probably.

Still want to run a TV show about it? The tenth anniversary activities going on - are like an Al Quaeda-favouring charity event. They cannot wish for much more, can they.

I agree 100%. It's great PR for them. And i'm tired of this too. It was a tragedy, it was terrible, it was all of those adjectives. But why do we need to go through this self flagellation every 1 year, 5 years, 10 years after it?