Order 270 U.S.S.R. - Family of Red Army Captives Killed

[STEED]

It's interesting to note when Stalin went missing in July 1941 in his Summer Home he got a visit from Molotov, Beria and others. Stalin believed they come to remove him from power but no they wanted him back, sort of shows the power Stalin had in his darkest hour. I will give credit to Stalin on one point, he never raised his voice or flew off the handle in a rage like Hitler would often do.

Another point when you ask who was the bigger monster Stalin or Hitler, nine times out of ten Hitler would be the answer and yet as we all know many millions more suffered and were killed under Stalin's rule.

The turning point between Stalin and Hitler took place after the dreadful defeat the Red Army suffered at the Battle of Kharkov 1942, Stalin knew he could not make all the military decisions and so listen to his Generals unlike Hitler who would go on to run the war his way.


At wars end Stalin did the dirty by re-writting history as to say it was him who saved Russia from the Germans.

[joea]

Originally Posted by STEED

Another point when you ask who was the bigger monster Stalin or Hitler, nine times out of ten Hitler would be the answer and yet as we all know many millions more suffered and were killed under Stalin's rule.

How many more?

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by joea

How many more?

If you're referring to how many more that Stalin killed, the general consensus seems to be 'a lot more'.
Figuratively-speaking, the much-bandied numbers are Hitler=approx 6 million, Stalin=20 million.
Not my words but, Stalin certainly had that in his favour, if i can put that nicely. No disrespect to anyone ofc.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by joea

How many more?

Well it's estimated that 20 million odd died under Stalin, I don't think we will ever know the real number.

[Task Force]

Originally Posted by BossMark

Yes it makes me wonder what could have happened if Hitler had never invaded Russia

Russia would have more than likely invaded Germany after the military reforms happend.

*In all actuality id say Stalin was abit more crazy, Paranoid man he was.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

If you're referring to how many more that Stalin killed, the general consensus seems to be 'a lot more'.
Figuratively-speaking, the much-bandied numbers are Hitler=approx 6 million, Stalin=20 million.
Not my words but, Stalin certainly had that in his favour, if i can put that nicely. No disrespect to anyone ofc.

Actually, the usual numbers I hear come to around 20 million for Hitler and 40 million for Stalin, give or take. However, a lot more people on Hitler's count were actually directly murdered, while many people on Stalin's count died as a result of various economic policies and other indirect measures.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Task Force

Russia would have more than likely invaded Germany after the military reforms happend.

And that is why Hitler broke the 'pact of steel'.
He knew that Stalin would break the treaty.
It was either Hitler invade or Stalin invade.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Task Force

Russia would have more than likely invaded Germany after the military reforms happend.

This is a myth, Stalin up the raw goods to Germany after the fall of France. Oil, wheat, iron and so on, so why attack Germany's eastern border when your on to a good thing.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

And that is why Hitler broke the 'pact of steel'.
He knew that Stalin would break the treaty.
It was either Hitler invade or Stalin invade.

The Germans claimed this as justification for the invasion. There is a considerable debate whether the Soviets were actually planning to invade Germany.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Figuratively-speaking, the much-bandied numbers are Hitler=approx 6 million, Stalin=20 million.

6 million Jews. At the end of the day, the tens of millions dead in WWII are still "Hitler's" fault.

I think the other thing to consider is that as bad as Stalin was, he generally speaking wasn't genocidal (though in some instances it may be argued otherwise) but rather political in who he went after. Stalin's atrocities were also almost exclusively internal to the Soviet state system, and were carried out by millions of willing accomplices and informants within the society. They were not carried out (with some exceptions) by military invasion from the outside. Fundamentally, you can't separate what Stalin did with the politics and sociology of the Soviet system as a whole - terrible as it was, it was a civil affair (in the sense of being internal to civilian life in the USSR, not in the sense of being nice). Terrible as it is, I don't think it's appropriate to measure it by the same ruler as war crimes.

[STEED]

Hitler spelt it all out in his book well before he came to power and when he did, he put Germany on course with a war with Russia.

A what if situation is when Hitler was busy in the West could the Red Army had invaded Romania and held it? There by cutting Hitler's main oil supplies and could have stopped him in his tracks to invade Russia. Of course this is all speculation and maybe's.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by STEED

A what if situation is when Hitler was busy in the West could the Red Army had invaded Romania and held it? There by cutting Hitler's main oil supplies and could have stopped him in his tracks to invade Russia. Of course this is all speculation and maybe's.

Hitler never wanted war with the west. Infact he respected the British (early on, certainly).
Hitler's goal was always to the east, to his nemesis, well, actually 2: Bolshevism and Stalin.

[STEED]

I know Hitler was not keen on war with Britain but how could he avoid it when he hated the French? Maybe after the fall of France he could have tried to swing it his way with no BoB and release all the British POW's and told Mussolini to back off in the south, but once again another what if.

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

There is a considerable debate whether the Soviets were actually planning to invade Germany.

From what I've understood, Viktor Suvorov is the main proponent of this theory, whereas the majority of historians are content with the answer that the historians so often have to be content with: "We don't know one way or another."

What is known is that Stalin was afraid of an invasion from the foreign countries. It wasn't only Germany: in fact, for a long time Stalin considered France to be Soviet Union's most dangerous enemy. Japan was another. This was used in rhetorics. For example, a direct quote from David MacKenzie's and Michael Curran''s book "A History of Russia and the Soviet Union" (1982, page 519) states the following:

Stalin stated in February 1931: "We are 50 to 100 years behind the advanced countries. We must cover this distance in ten years. Either we do this or they will crush us."

Not paying attention to the fact that ten years later Germany did indeed invade, this was his mentality and thus also affected the mentality of the whole country a lot (of course Soviet Union isn't Stalin alone). Also, after the war, Stalin wanted the satellite states that became the Eastern block in Cold War precisely because he wanted a barrier to soak any further attacks.

So with all that being said, I guess a pre-emptive strike kind of thinking was possible, at least to create the barrier but history never showed us that variant of the events, so we can't say. It could be argued that the Soviet Union already had a barrier by having annexed Eastern Poland and the Baltic countries, but who can say they wouldn't have wanted to expand it. Some could also make the ideological argument, with the idea of world revolution and all that, but personally I don't see Stalin starting wars for ideological purposes (rhetorics, of course, could have still used it to justify the war).

But all in all I agree with Steed and Raptor1. There is no hard evidence supporting the intentions and in history even a phenomenon like Soviet Union is still innocent until proven guilty.

[STEED]

The documentary series based on Laurence Rees book...World War Two Behind Closed Doors - Stalin, The Nazis And The West had a scene with Stalin and his two top Generals showing plans of a attack on the Germans and Stalin got angry at them and came close to saying one of his Generals would have been shot for that idea.

How serious the plans were are not very clear and Stalin had no intentions what so ever.