Could a Commerce Raider work on the modern Ocean? , What would it look like ? - Page 2

tater · 05-24-11, 07:30 AM

Yes. It's called a stealth aircraft. Using a sub or other slow-moving craft is a guarantee of failure vs any modern foe for a protracted campaign.

Oberon · 05-24-11, 08:25 AM

For sinking enemy commerce?

Of course, the trick will be disguising the refueling tender and keeping the codes encrypted so that no-one knows where she'll be refueling and rearming, but an Amur could attack, withdraw and attack elsewhere for weeks if not months before being done in if she had a good captain. Heck, she might well survive the war.
She's cheaper than a nuke boat and easier to hide, quieter and smaller.
She's slow, but if you leave the datum as soon as you fire your torpedoes, then by the time the escorts are on the scene you are quietly out of the scene.
Pick your targets well and you'd be laughing.

Of course, then the convoys would start and that would be a bit harder, but wolfpack tactics would still be viable, focusing on the escorts first to get the enemy helos out of the way and then using the rest of the torpedoes and Stallions (or whatever the Amur carries in ASMs) to whack the commerce, then go deep and quiet before the P-3s arrive.

Alternatively there's the good old Kitchen ASM from Tu-22Ms, a squadron of those could ruin a convoys day if the convoy didn't have a carrier with it or enough decent SAM coverage.

Heck, even if it had both if you combined a Tu-22M attack with a Kilo attack and threw in an Oscar II with a Shipwreck barrage within the same window...well...I wouldn't want to be the CIC Radar operator who had to deal with that lot coming in. You'd be shouting Vampire for six minutes straight.

Betonov · 05-24-11, 08:36 AM

OK, here's my idea.

A commerce raider, disquised as a civilian cargo ship starts following a target, either radar, satelite, anything.
Plots her course and intercepts about 20* miles infront of the target
Releases a drone sub or a ROV. The drone waits under the surface while the raider moves a little out of sight.
When the target gets close the drone creeps up to it, grabs hold of the hull and releases an electro-magnetic shock, frying all electronics on board, leaving the ship without power and communication.
Raider intercepts and boards

* just a random number, for the sake of argument

CCIP · 05-24-11, 08:36 AM

I dunno, I think SSNs have a good chance then because their ability to dash after making their attack. By the time even air ASW assets arrive, they will be within tens of miles of where the attack took place. That is of course assuming that the raiding will focus on distant, open seas with support always some flight time away. In that sense, SSNs are probably better than aircraft because they maintain a chance of never being detected and the direction from which they attacked or where they retreated to never actually verified.

SSKs won't have that luxury though. They will still be within a few miles of the attack site when long-range aircraft arrive, and have a much narrower margin for making their escape. They still stand a chance, but it's much trickier for them.

CCIP · 05-24-11, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

OK, here's my idea.

A commerce raider, disquised as a civilian cargo ship starts following a target, either radar, satelite, anything.
Plots her course and intercepts about 20* miles infront of the target
Releases a drone sub or a ROV. The drone waits under the surface while the raider moves a little out of sight.
When the target gets close the drone creeps up to it, grabs hold of the hull and releases an electro-magnetic shock, frying all electronics on board, leaving the ship without power and communication.
Raider intercepts and boards

* just a random number, for the sake of argument

Cool idea, but again, I think it'll only be a matter of time before the enemy figures out what's going on.

Although this reminds me of another reason why SSKs aren't really suited: raiding in littoral/narrow waters is probably much better accomplished by 'smart' mobile mines. Which can be laid by practically anything, including a disguised merchant of course. But that merchant needs to be out of there before those things activate, or else it's again pretty likely the enemy will quickly catch on.

kraznyi_oktjabr · 05-24-11, 08:50 AM

There is two important things which make commerce raiding trickier than earlier.

1. Most cargo ships are equipped with EPIRB buoy which automatically activates when ship sinks and sends location and information of ship just sunk.
2. In modern GMDSS compatible digital radios generic emergency signal, which includes ship's IMO number, location etc., can be sent by pressing just one button. With few seconds of time available you can add info on what happened. No need for verbal communications anymore.

EPIRB sends information both via VHF and satellite. With radio there have to be another vessel or shore radio station in range.

tater · 05-24-11, 10:00 AM

Again the foe matters. I tend to assume the US is the target, so it is an unlikely type of warfare. As soon as we know commerce is being attacked, we have asw air assets near shipping lanes. The SSN will not have very long to egress the attack area. We'd also keep our boats around.

Honestly, stealthed aircraft would have a far better chance. Dash in, fire some over the horizon anti-shipping missiles, and scoot.

Mush Martin · 05-24-11, 10:38 AM

Good Posts all

Rockstar · 05-24-11, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

There is two important things which make commerce raiding trickier than earlier.

1. Most cargo ships are equipped with EPIRB buoy which automatically activates when ship sinks and sends location and information of ship just sunk.
2. In modern GMDSS compatible digital radios generic emergency signal, which includes ship's IMO number, location etc., can be sent by pressing just one button. With few seconds of time available you can add info on what happened. No need for verbal communications anymore.

EPIRB sends information both via VHF and satellite. With radio there have to be another vessel or shore radio station in range.

Add to that commercial ships are equipped with transponders making their position known 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Also the private global communications technology available even to the lowest of crew members like SAT phones. Makes it hard to be sneaky

Betonov · 05-24-11, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Add to that commercial ships are equipped with transponders making their position known 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Also the private global communications technology available even to the lowest of crew members like SAT phones. Makes it hard to be sneaky

And if an EMP fries the electronics, they'll know where the signal stopped.

That fries my idea

August · 05-24-11, 05:59 PM

Ok here's August Evils evil modern commerce raider plan:

To sink enemy vessels we develop robotic limpet mines. A self propelled high explosive magnetic mine that attachs itself to the hull of a target ship and can be detonated hours or even days later by either timer or remote control. These mines alone or in groups (for say seeding an enemy harbor) are deployed from hatches located below the waterline of the commerce raider when it passes in the vicinity of a target ship.

To capture enemy vessels we use midget submarines. Same general idea as the limpet mine but instead of high explosives it carries a prize crew as it's payload. They deploy, again from underwater hatches and attach to the targets hull, then they wait for the opportune moment to take her by boarding (Arrr).

Rockstar · 05-24-11, 06:01 PM

I visited the headquarters of a well known towing company recently. In the main room was this huge electronic map, much like the 'big board' in the movie Dr. Strangelove. On it was the name, location, course, speed, last port of call, next port of call, ETA, and cargo of every towboat and barge they owned.

The 'Big Eye' sees everything these days.

Platapus · 05-24-11, 06:02 PM

Sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads.

Jimbuna · 05-24-11, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads.

But not dolphins with mines strapped to their backs please

Platapus · 05-24-11, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

But not dolphins with mines strapped to their backs please

Day of the Dolphin. Very sad movie.

I still tear up when Scott tells the dolphin to tell the other dolphins to never talk to humans.

05-24-11, 07:30 AM	#16
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Yes. It's called a stealth aircraft. Using a sub or other slow-moving craft is a guarantee of failure vs any modern foe for a protracted campaign. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

05-24-11, 08:36 AM	#19
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I dunno, I think SSNs have a good chance then because their ability to dash after making their attack. By the time even air ASW assets arrive, they will be within tens of miles of where the attack took place. That is of course assuming that the raiding will focus on distant, open seas with support always some flight time away. In that sense, SSNs are probably better than aircraft because they maintain a chance of never being detected and the direction from which they attacked or where they retreated to never actually verified. SSKs won't have that luxury though. They will still be within a few miles of the attack site when long-range aircraft arrive, and have a much narrower margin for making their escape. They still stand a chance, but it's much trickier for them. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

05-24-11, 08:50 AM	#21
kraznyi_oktjabr Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Republiken Finland Posts: 1,803 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	There is two important things which make commerce raiding trickier than earlier. 1. Most cargo ships are equipped with EPIRB buoy which automatically activates when ship sinks and sends location and information of ship just sunk. 2. In modern GMDSS compatible digital radios generic emergency signal, which includes ship's IMO number, location etc., can be sent by pressing just one button. With few seconds of time available you can add info on what happened. No need for verbal communications anymore. EPIRB sends information both via VHF and satellite. With radio there have to be another vessel or shore radio station in range. __________________ You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic. - Dr. House

05-24-11, 10:00 AM	#22
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Again the foe matters. I tend to assume the US is the target, so it is an unlikely type of warfare. As soon as we know commerce is being attacked, we have asw air assets near shipping lanes. The SSN will not have very long to egress the attack area. We'd also keep our boats around. Honestly, stealthed aircraft would have a far better chance. Dash in, fire some over the horizon anti-shipping missiles, and scoot. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

05-24-11, 10:38 AM	#23
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Good Posts all __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

05-24-11, 08:25 AM	#17
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	For sinking enemy commerce? Of course, the trick will be disguising the refueling tender and keeping the codes encrypted so that no-one knows where she'll be refueling and rearming, but an Amur could attack, withdraw and attack elsewhere for weeks if not months before being done in if she had a good captain. Heck, she might well survive the war. She's cheaper than a nuke boat and easier to hide, quieter and smaller. She's slow, but if you leave the datum as soon as you fire your torpedoes, then by the time the escorts are on the scene you are quietly out of the scene. Pick your targets well and you'd be laughing. Of course, then the convoys would start and that would be a bit harder, but wolfpack tactics would still be viable, focusing on the escorts first to get the enemy helos out of the way and then using the rest of the torpedoes and Stallions (or whatever the Amur carries in ASMs) to whack the commerce, then go deep and quiet before the P-3s arrive. Alternatively there's the good old Kitchen ASM from Tu-22Ms, a squadron of those could ruin a convoys day if the convoy didn't have a carrier with it or enough decent SAM coverage. Heck, even if it had both if you combined a Tu-22M attack with a Kilo attack and threw in an Oscar II with a Shipwreck barrage within the same window...well...I wouldn't want to be the CIC Radar operator who had to deal with that lot coming in. You'd be shouting Vampire for six minutes straight.

05-24-11, 08:36 AM	#18
Betonov Navy Seal Join Date: May 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 8,647 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	OK, here's my idea. A commerce raider, disquised as a civilian cargo ship starts following a target, either radar, satelite, anything. Plots her course and intercepts about 20* miles infront of the target Releases a drone sub or a ROV. The drone waits under the surface while the raider moves a little out of sight. When the target gets close the drone creeps up to it, grabs hold of the hull and releases an electro-magnetic shock, frying all electronics on board, leaving the ship without power and communication. Raider intercepts and boards * just a random number, for the sake of argument

05-24-11, 05:59 PM	#26
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,215 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ok here's August Evils evil modern commerce raider plan: To sink enemy vessels we develop robotic limpet mines. A self propelled high explosive magnetic mine that attachs itself to the hull of a target ship and can be detonated hours or even days later by either timer or remote control. These mines alone or in groups (for say seeding an enemy harbor) are deployed from hatches located below the waterline of the commerce raider when it passes in the vicinity of a target ship. To capture enemy vessels we use midget submarines. Same general idea as the limpet mine but instead of high explosives it carries a prize crew as it's payload. They deploy, again from underwater hatches and attach to the targets hull, then they wait for the opportune moment to take her by boarding (Arrr). __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

05-24-11, 06:01 PM	#27
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I visited the headquarters of a well known towing company recently. In the main room was this huge electronic map, much like the 'big board' in the movie Dr. Strangelove. On it was the name, location, course, speed, last port of call, next port of call, ETA, and cargo of every towboat and barge they owned. The 'Big Eye' sees everything these days. Last edited by Rockstar; 05-24-11 at 06:23 PM.

05-24-11, 06:02 PM	#28
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,379 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.