Losing Our Way

Gerald · 03-27-11, 09:58 AM

So here we are pouring shiploads of cash into yet another war, this time in Libya, while simultaneously demolishing school budgets, closing libraries, laying off teachers and police officers, and generally letting the bottom fall out of the quality of life here at home.

Welcome to America in the second decade of the 21st century. An army of long-term unemployed workers is spread across the land, the human fallout from the Great Recession and long years of misguided economic policies. Optimism is in short supply. The few jobs now being created too often pay a pittance, not nearly enough to pry open the doors to a middle-class standard of living.

Arthur Miller, echoing the poet Archibald MacLeish, liked to say that the essence of America was its promises. That was a long time ago. Limitless greed, unrestrained corporate power and a ferocious addiction to foreign oil have led us to an era of perpetual war and economic decline. Young people today are staring at a future in which they will be less well off than their elders, a reversal of fortune that should send a shudder through everyone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/op...erbert.html?bl

Note: March 25, 2011

tater · 03-27-11, 10:19 AM

The US already spends too much on public education. The average is around what I pay for private school. In NYC and other urban areas, public school spending per student is well above what I pay per kid. Do they have 14-16 kids per class with virtually all the kids finishing grade school with excellent academics? Didn't think so.

I'm with you on the expense of Libya, etc, but some of the "usual suspects" for where money should go instead are false choices, IMHO. Better to cut spending, then pay of debt, then with whatever is left over, cut taxes (there won't be any left over any time soon). Edu is the bulk of most state budgets, too, so it should get cut first, not last—it's not like the end product is an intelligent electorate, I'd be willing to be more HS kids (public) would be able to tell you some trivia about virtually any celebrity, and nothing at all about WW2, or even the Revolutionary War period.

Growler · 03-27-11, 10:41 AM

The simplest distillation of the current situation is that nothing is working as may have been initially intended. Education, as tater pointed out, is plainly broken. Social services = broke. Election processes = broke. Accountability of elected officials = broke. Corporate responsibility extends now only to shareholder dividends on a quarterly basis - that's three months. If a retailer isn't reporting double digit sales growth every three months, they're a failure. That kind of growth isn't sustainable; the only way to achieve those kind of profits is to cut other expenses - lower lighting levels at night, fewer on-hand employees, reduced benefits, lower salaries. Eventually, you get what exists today: Salaries too low to pay for people to even live in the communities where they work, or unemployment, creating a strain on social services that could otherwise be more efficient in helping others, ramping up their costs, which leads to calls for tax hikes, ad nauseum.

What's called for is a wholesale revamp of the way this country does business - literally and figuratively. We cannot continue to support a Congress and White House - either party - that is controlled by what the chief "sponsors" tell them to do. They're no longer accountable to the public they allegedly serve; they've become lackeys of special interests on all sides, at all levels. Both parties are experts at spin, making it look like the other guys' sides' fault, while the special interests go marching along with their agendas and benefits.

Meanwhile, we need to see fair wages instituted for workers, and jobs kept in this country. In order to do that, this quarterly profit sharing dividends model bullpucky has to stop. The reason jobs are outsourced is because they're cheaper, which leads to more profits to keep the shareholders happy. We have become a nation ruled by shareholders who, by their power, dictate what they want from business, who then goes to Washington to get what they need to post those profits from Congress, who pays for it all off of taxpayer dollars. That model has to change.

But it won't. We still believe in some dude who created all of the world, to whom we owe our very souls, and who will reward us for being sheep in this life by making us shepherds in the next. So if we can still, after all the advances of society and technology, believe in a middle-ages-serf-control method today, why should the lords change anything about how they work, either?

Takeda Shingen · 03-27-11, 11:11 AM

Education spending did not cause this crisis, nor does it perpetuate it. What we are seeing is what Rahm Emanuel summarized as 'not letting a crisis go to waste'. Education spending has long been in the crosshairs of the right, and we now see that they use the current problems as an excuse to take care of an old enemy. So much for the argument of moral superiority.

Wolfehunter · 03-27-11, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Growler

But it won't. We still believe in some dude who created all of the world, to whom we owe our very souls, and who will reward us for being sheep in this life by making us shepherds in the next. So if we can still, after all the advances of society and technology, believe in a middle-ages-serf-control method today, why should the lords change anything about how they work, either?

So true... so true.

gimpy117 · 03-27-11, 02:08 PM

being 19, and ready to come of age in this world...this article depresses me. Hell maybe I should learn Swedish and move there or something. Even the women are hotter there.

Gerald · 03-27-11, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gimpy117

being 19, and ready to come of age in this world...this article depresses me. Hell maybe I should learn Swedish and move there or something. Even the women are hotter there.

Are you really sure that they are better in Sweden instead of U.S.? Personally, I think the opposite (sometimes), but it depends on the time and opportunity

AngusJS · 03-28-11, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Growler

The reason jobs are outsourced is because they're cheaper, which leads to more profits to keep the shareholders happy. We have become a nation ruled by shareholders who, by their power, dictate what they want from business, who then goes to Washington to get what they need to post those profits from Congress, who pays for it all off of taxpayer dollars. That model has to change.

But it won't. We still believe in some dude who created all of the world, to whom we owe our very souls, and who will reward us for being sheep in this life by making us shepherds in the next. So if we can still, after all the advances of society and technology, believe in a middle-ages-serf-control method today, why should the lords change anything about how they work, either?

QFT

Ducimus · 03-28-11, 07:17 PM

Quote:

I always hate hearing stuff like this. I hate it because that kind of inequality is indeed scandalous. I hate it because even with stats like that, the bottom 80% of the US is a damn sight better off than 90% of the world. I hate it because it's almost always part of an argument that is indicative of a desire to force a redistribution of wealth, which in turn requires government intervention.

UnderseaLcpl, last i checked this is the United States, not F'ing China or India. You've used that part in the bold before, and what it seems to me your really saying is, "Your not living in huts, so STFU". What you are arguing for, IS a redesitribution of wealth, in and of itself. Your arguing that it is ok to redistribute American wealth, across the globe, because we aren't living in huts.

Well, yeah, it's true, we don't live in huts, but this is the United States of America. Places like China or Inida is there, and this is here, and HERE is what matters. Here we have and should have higher standards, and you should expect no less for your home country! In order to ensure that, and to preserve the American way of life, we need to look after our own people.. You know.. looking out for your own? Didn't they teach you that in the Marine Corp?

UnderseaLcpl · 03-28-11, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

UnderseaLcpl, last i checked this is the United States, not F'ing China or India. You've used that part in the bold before, and what it seems to me your really saying is, "Your not living in huts, so STFU". What you are arguing for, IS a redesitribution of wealth, in and of itself. Your arguing that it is ok to redistribute American wealth, across the globe, because we aren't living in huts.

That's not what I'm saying at all, Deuce, sorry if I gave you that impression. I don't know if you read the rest of the post (can't blame you if you didn't) but what I'm arguing for is limitation of government because government is so counterproductive. It inadvertently ends up sedning our jobs overseas or destroying them entirely or making it so that nobody creates them in the first place.

I don't much care for the current world distribution of wealth, but I'm not out to fix it. Actually, if we adopted my consistent stance that we should restrict government and lower corporate and capital gains taxes to a fraction of what they are now, or better yet, to zero, we'd end up making a lot of the world poorer as firms (and especially financial firms) flocked to the US.

Quote:

In order to ensure that, and to preserve the American way of life, we need to look after our own people.. You know.. looking out for your own? Didn't they teach you that in the Marine Corp?

And that's precisely what I'm doing, as best I know how. Granted, my preferred method is not going to save the family farm or the old mill. In fact, a lot of jobs like that would be lost for lack of subsidies. However, there would be so many new and better jobs created that we come out out. Even the little guy wins because employers will be forced to pay more and provide training just to attract workers because there won't be enough to go around. The wealth generated by such a business environment would also provide jobs in other countries since we buy everything from everybody else. Everybody wins in the end.

Onkel Neal · 03-28-11, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

UnderseaLcpl, last i checked this is the United States, not F'ing China or India. You've used that part in the bold before, and what it seems to me your really saying is, "Your not living in huts, so STFU". What you are arguing for, IS a redesitribution of wealth, in and of itself. Your arguing that it is ok to redistribute American wealth, across the globe, because we aren't living in huts.

Well, yeah, it's true, we don't live in huts, but this is the United States of America. Places like China or Inida is there, and this is here, and HERE is what matters. Here we have and should have higher standards, and you should expect no less for your home country! In order to ensure that, and to preserve the American way of life, we need to look after our own people.. You know.. looking out for your own? Didn't they teach you that in the Marine Corp?

Easy, there. Debate the message, don't attack the messenger.

MothBalls · 03-28-11, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendor

So here we are pouring shiploads of cash into yet another war, this time in Libya, while simultaneously demolishing school budgets, closing libraries, laying off teachers and police officers, and generally letting the bottom fall out of the quality of life here at home.

They have oil. We can use that in our SUV's. Just don't say it too loud, don't want the people of Rwanda know why we can help and oil country and not them.

Gerald · 03-28-11, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MothBalls

They have oil. We can use that in our SUV's. Just don't say it too loud, don't want the people of Rwanda know why we can help and oil country and not them.

Glad I do not drive a gas-guzzling car, but sometimes I drive fast then easily come up in 1.4 liters miles 1 mile (10 kilometer)

03-27-11, 09:58 AM	#1
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	Losing Our Way So here we are pouring shiploads of cash into yet another war, this time in Libya, while simultaneously demolishing school budgets, closing libraries, laying off teachers and police officers, and generally letting the bottom fall out of the quality of life here at home. Welcome to America in the second decade of the 21st century. An army of long-term unemployed workers is spread across the land, the human fallout from the Great Recession and long years of misguided economic policies. Optimism is in short supply. The few jobs now being created too often pay a pittance, not nearly enough to pry open the doors to a middle-class standard of living. Arthur Miller, echoing the poet Archibald MacLeish, liked to say that the essence of America was its promises. That was a long time ago. Limitless greed, unrestrained corporate power and a ferocious addiction to foreign oil have led us to an era of perpetual war and economic decline. Young people today are staring at a future in which they will be less well off than their elders, a reversal of fortune that should send a shudder through everyone. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/op...erbert.html?bl Note: March 25, 2011 __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

03-27-11, 10:19 AM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The US already spends too much on public education. The average is around what I pay for private school. In NYC and other urban areas, public school spending per student is well above what I pay per kid. Do they have 14-16 kids per class with virtually all the kids finishing grade school with excellent academics? Didn't think so. I'm with you on the expense of Libya, etc, but some of the "usual suspects" for where money should go instead are false choices, IMHO. Better to cut spending, then pay of debt, then with whatever is left over, cut taxes (there won't be any left over any time soon). Edu is the bulk of most state budgets, too, so it should get cut first, not last—it's not like the end product is an intelligent electorate, I'd be willing to be more HS kids (public) would be able to tell you some trivia about virtually any celebrity, and nothing at all about WW2, or even the Revolutionary War period. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

03-27-11, 10:41 AM	#3
Growler A long way from the sea Join Date: May 2005 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,913 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	The simplest distillation of the current situation is that nothing is working as may have been initially intended. Education, as tater pointed out, is plainly broken. Social services = broke. Election processes = broke. Accountability of elected officials = broke. Corporate responsibility extends now only to shareholder dividends on a quarterly basis - that's three months. If a retailer isn't reporting double digit sales growth every three months, they're a failure. That kind of growth isn't sustainable; the only way to achieve those kind of profits is to cut other expenses - lower lighting levels at night, fewer on-hand employees, reduced benefits, lower salaries. Eventually, you get what exists today: Salaries too low to pay for people to even live in the communities where they work, or unemployment, creating a strain on social services that could otherwise be more efficient in helping others, ramping up their costs, which leads to calls for tax hikes, ad nauseum. What's called for is a wholesale revamp of the way this country does business - literally and figuratively. We cannot continue to support a Congress and White House - either party - that is controlled by what the chief "sponsors" tell them to do. They're no longer accountable to the public they allegedly serve; they've become lackeys of special interests on all sides, at all levels. Both parties are experts at spin, making it look like the other guys' sides' fault, while the special interests go marching along with their agendas and benefits. Meanwhile, we need to see fair wages instituted for workers, and jobs kept in this country. In order to do that, this quarterly profit sharing dividends model bullpucky has to stop. The reason jobs are outsourced is because they're cheaper, which leads to more profits to keep the shareholders happy. We have become a nation ruled by shareholders who, by their power, dictate what they want from business, who then goes to Washington to get what they need to post those profits from Congress, who pays for it all off of taxpayer dollars. That model has to change. But it won't. We still believe in some dude who created all of the world, to whom we owe our very souls, and who will reward us for being sheep in this life by making us shepherds in the next. So if we can still, after all the advances of society and technology, believe in a middle-ages-serf-control method today, why should the lords change anything about how they work, either? __________________ At Fiddler’s Green, where seamen true When here they’ve done their duty The bowl of grog shall still renew And pledge to love and beauty.

03-27-11, 02:08 PM	#6
gimpy117 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 3,243 Downloads: 108 Uploads: 0	being 19, and ready to come of age in this world...this article depresses me. Hell maybe I should learn Swedish and move there or something. Even the women are hotter there. __________________ Member of the Subsim Zombie Army

03-27-11, 11:11 AM	#4
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Education spending did not cause this crisis, nor does it perpetuate it. What we are seeing is what Rahm Emanuel summarized as 'not letting a crisis go to waste'. Education spending has long been in the crosshairs of the right, and we now see that they use the current problems as an excuse to take care of an old enemy. So much for the argument of moral superiority.