The failure which was Reagan...in chart form!!

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

The thing that must be understood with American Politics is that they display an inherent Negative Dynamic Stability over time.

What i mean by this is that you start with a fairly unified America politically speaking.

As time goes on, each candidate becomes exponentially more right or left leaning than the last.

eventually the lean reaches an extreme.

In the last president, perhaps we say an extreme of the right?

In the current president, an extreme of the left.

in the mean time, the majority of the Americans are in the center... some ever so slightly to the right, others ever so slightly to the left.

the only choice they have is to vote for the most right or left aligned candidate.

the question which is to be answered - does the political stability reset to neutral or does it shatter the system into oblivion?








also, i have been drinking.

The US downfall will be due to its founding forefathers who wrote up a very vague constitution that leaves more questions than answers and is full of loopholes that every race, gender, and religion tries to take advantage of for self benefit.

[Skybird]

They put it quite well - one only has to understand that no human being, not them back then and not us today, is able to think beyiond the concepts and contexts of the time he lives in. When one refers to the founding fathers back then to conclude on what their relevance is for today, one has to consider that time gap as well, and spend extra care for deciding what parts of their words reflected the special circumstances of their time, so that these words maybe need shifts in interpretation to make them correctly reflecting the chnaged circumstances today.

It's like that with almost every example of what usually gets called "holy books", isn't it. the founding father lived in a world that was different to the one we have now, and they hardly have forseen or imagined the conditions and charcteristic of the present world. Not taking that into account means to judge the present by categories that were valid in a far away past, as if no time has gone by and nothing has chnaged at all.

Some things change fast from deacde to decade, some things change so slow that even from one man's life to the next you almost miss the difference - but changing all and everything does. Many conflicts between people arise where this is not understood, or ignored, which obviously is especially relevant for example for the field of theistic religions' dogmas and commandements. but often, laws and constitutions are affected by this to. Did you know that there is one German federal state where they still have the death penalty available and it is still not beign abandoned!? It's true. It's just that it is not made use of - but the legal basis to sentence people to death is still there - valid and fully legal. there are many other such relics from ancient times as well. Parts of the German pension'S regulations - date back to the wilhelminian republic, other parts of German laws being used today were invented by - the Nazis. So, what has become of age, may lose relevance and context (death penalty), others old things may prevail (social security laws, first introduced by Bismarck), and some older things may be of value today although they had been introduced by the perceived wrong people (laws from theNazi era still in use today).

Panta Rhei. Therefore, "only a Sith deals in absolutes."

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

In the last president, perhaps we say an extreme of the right?

In the current president, an extreme of the left.

also, i have been drinking.

I guess U really have been hitting the bottle.. Our president is failing to pass laws that would have been considered moderate 20 years ago. Look at social security...Imagine trying to set that up today? Or the New deal? FDR would have been called a communist by all the tabaggers.
And compare us to Europe!!! Im sure half of them would say even our most liberal politicians are quite conservative.

[Tchocky]

Comprehensive health insurance is an idea whose time has come in America.

There has long been a need to assure every American financial access to high quality health care. As medical costs go up, that need grows more pressing.

Now, for the first time, we have not just the need but the will to get this job done. There is widespread support in the Congress and in the Nation for some form of comprehensive health insurance.

Surely if we have the will, 1974 should also be the year that we find the way.

Nixon

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Quote:
Comprehensive health insurance is an idea whose time has come in America.

There has long been a need to assure every American financial access to high quality health care. As medical costs go up, that need grows more pressing.

Now, for the first time, we have not just the need but the will to get this job done. There is widespread support in the Congress and in the Nation for some form of comprehensive health insurance.

Surely if we have the will, 1974 should also be the year that we find the way.
Nixon

See what I mean. that was republicans in 1974. Now they're advocating privatizing EVERYTHING.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by thorn69

The US downfall will be due to its founding forefathers who wrote up a very vague constitution that leaves more questions than answers and is full of loopholes that every race, gender, and religion tries to take advantage of for self benefit.

That's true with any law. As Sky points out, it is impossible to craft a perfect system that will last forever, which is why we were warned that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and given a legitimate system of changing the constitution should the need arise.

It took less than three quarters of a century for the original Constitution to start falling apart, as evidenced by the Confederate Constitution, which is effectively the same document but much more specific and limiting. It, too would have eventually fallen apart, but the stronger the bulwark built against the state is the longer it will take to break down. In the absence of damnyankees, that is

Originally Posted by gimpy117

See what I mean. that was republicans in 1974. Now they're advocating privatizing EVERYTHING.

That kind of reversal is not unique to Republicans. Whenever one side takes up an issue in a two-party system, the other side must necessarily take the opposite tack if it wishes to secure the greatest number of voters. The Republicans also used to be the party of peace, while Dems were warhawks, and vice-versa before that. It isn't about the parties themselves so much as it is about the system in which they must operate.

My solution to this nonsense, as always, is to limit the power of the state to create new legislation so severely (i.e. supermajority required for everything) that noone in their right mind would even waste time trying to co-opt it. On top of that, make it extremely answerable for its proper tasks so that it cannot grow complacent or abusive. To further keep it from growing complacent or abusive, privatize certain sectors of it via a contractual system with elections held every fiscal year to allow people to replace the privatized sector in question with a new contractor.

Even that system, however, comes with an expiration date. I don't know how or when, but somebody, somewhere, will find a way around or through, hence the need for the tree of liberty to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots. The goal is not to build a permanent system, but to preserve the forward march of progress until such safeguards are no longer necessary.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by thorn69

The US downfall will be due to its founding forefathers who wrote up a very vague constitution that leaves more questions than answers and is full of loopholes that every race, gender, and religion tries to take advantage of for self benefit.

Nah, it's not the founding fathers' fault. They're dead, they can do about as much to fix our mistakes as we will be able to do to fix our great-great-grandchildren's mistakes.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

Oh im glad Regan could write his own speeches while he screwed over our country and sold out the working class.

And what has the GOP done that is worthwhile for America? NOTHING!
they sat idly by while our economy melted down, Got us into 2 wars, destroyed our public image, ran the deficit up, Let our schools go all to hell, Passed laws limiting our civil liberties. and so on.

Sorry if it's taking to long to fix all the GOP mistakes. It would be easier with some cooperation from the people who did all this.

Nice - throw mud at the other guy, while ignoring the reality that the Dems have failed by the following:
The borders are still not secure.
We are another 12 Trillion in debt.
The wars that the Chosen One was going to end - haven't.
Gitmo is still open.
How many days has oil been going into the gulf and Obama has done nothing but castigate big business and ask "whose ass should I kick".....
Oh - and use this as a way to push for cap and trade energy taxes.....
Unemployment is running at or near double digits (which it will be well over once they adjust for seasonal).

Remember that second "bailout" - it was going to keep unemployment under 8% - total failure.....
Though I do need to correct it - its not 12 Trillion in new debt. Its more like 2.5 Trillion.
Gitmo - still open.
Wars - still going.
Oil - still spilling.
Borders - still not secure.
Unemployment - still too high.

So ok - lets rephrase the question....

In the nearly 2 years the Dems have had power in BOTH Congress and the presidency - what have you actually accomplished?

A health care bill the majority of Americans don't support (note that O is STILL pitching it in speeches) and is likely to get heavily modified if not overturned next Congress.

That's it. That's your "one big accomplishment" - something most people didn't want to start with.

Well, unless of course you want to say blaming Bush is an accomplishment.....

So I will ask again :

In the nearly 2 years the Dems have had power in BOTH Congress and the presidency - what have you actually accomplished that demonstrates to the American people they should re-elect you and keep you in power?

[August]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Nice - throw mud at the other guy, while ignoring the reality that the Dems have failed by the following:
The borders are still not secure.
We are another 12 Trillion in debt.
The wars that the Chosen One was going to end - haven't.
Gitmo is still open.
How many days has oil been going into the gulf and Obama has done nothing but castigate big business and ask "whose ass should I kick".....
Oh - and use this as a way to push for cap and trade energy taxes.....
Unemployment is running at or near double digits (which it will be well over once they adjust for seasonal).

Remember that second "bailout" - it was going to keep unemployment under 8% - total failure.....
Though I do need to correct it - its not 12 Trillion in new debt. Its more like 2.5 Trillion.
Gitmo - still open.
Wars - still going.
Oil - still spilling.
Borders - still not secure.
Unemployment - still too high.

So ok - lets rephrase the question....

In the nearly 2 years the Dems have had power in BOTH Congress and the presidency - what have you actually accomplished?

A health care bill the majority of Americans don't support (note that O is STILL pitching it in speeches) and is likely to get heavily modified if not overturned next Congress.

That's it. That's your "one big accomplishment" - something most people didn't want to start with.

Well, unless of course you want to say blaming Bush is an accomplishment.....

So I will ask again :

In the nearly 2 years the Dems have had power in BOTH Congress and the presidency - what have you actually accomplished that demonstrates to the American people they should re-elect you and keep you in power?

Apparently they don't have much of an answer to your post Hap.

Originally Posted by gimpy117

See what I mean. that was republicans in 1974. Now they're advocating privatizing EVERYTHING.

Wrong! That was SOME republicans in 1974 and as you see, it didn't get passed back then. Let's not forget the fact that most Dems didn't agree with health care reform back then but now they do under Obama. Why though? Oh that's right - Because they could get it passed despite not having a single republican vote in favor of it and using some under the table/shady tactics to get it passed and forced down America's throat regardless!

And look what it did to your party! It's broken you up quite a bit! Why? Because the American public doesn't appreciate the throat raping Obama and Pelosi imposed on the American people that were predominantly against this health care reform package. Then the knucklehead of a president had the audacity to tell America they needed this bill to pass despite having not read the damn thing. How can Americans trust a reckless president like this? The answer: They can't!

NObama 2012!