Canada's newest terrorist group

Hey, Canadians, I didn't mean to insult you. It's just that if my forefathers left relatively sunny countries like France, Italy and even the UK to a certain extent and went to live in...Canada, I would just be pissed at them.

I mean, if you're going to kill off native people and live on their land, at least pick a sunny area where you plan to do that.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by Highbury

Well I do, it is rude.

You missed my point.

[Highbury]

Apparently I did and still do.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Can you find me 'the resistance that is very much alive?"

Why, you got your John Wayne - gear on and are raring for some Indian shooting - action?

[CaptainHaplo]

LOL OTH - no he is just challenging you to present some facts to back up your assertions...

You do have some facts to back them up, don't you?????

Or was this another "well you evil americans take this - even if I just did make it up, it makes me feel better to blame stuff on you!!!!" rant?

Here's some info on the condition on the Pine Ridge Oglala (Sioux) Reservation of SD. Gives some idea about what kind of conditions native people have to live in, in the modern day equivalents of concentration camps.

http://www.linkcenterfoundation.org/id24.html

[Subsim Monitor]

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

If I did not know any better I might actually care about this comment.

Honestly, why do people feed trolls?

[CaptainHaplo]

Well OTH - first of all let me take my hat off to ya - because you provided some very good documentation as requested. I respect that, because it enables me and others to understand where your position comes from, and give that full weight.

I read the link - and I have to make a few observations.

#1 - the Report is almost 4 years dated, but does provide a view of the conditions at the time of writing.

#2 - the writer is a "freelance" reporter and a member of the Native American Journalists Association - and as such it must be noted that "objectivity" is not necessarily maintained since membership requires "tribal affiliation" in some way.

#3 - per the article, while unemployment hovers around 84%, and 97% of the residents live below the poverty level, death and health rates are abnormally bad, the population is RISING! Now say what you want, but that just doesn't add up.

#4 - when taking into account #3, the article also makes clear that "half" the population are registered tribal members - meaning that half the people that are CHOOSING to live within the confines of the reservation are not members of the tribe.

#5 - taking 3 and 4 together - it would appear that the Oglala Lakota nation - as an INDEPENTENT NATION, has a severe problem with immigration - especially since most of the immigrants are apparently unemployed drunks according to the claims made by the article. (And people wonder why some US citizens want controlled borders....)

#6 - The nation has made illegal the sale or possession of alcohol. Then the article complains about the high rate of alcoholism and about liquor stores in a small community outside the limits of the reservation. If possession is illegal, then as long as the drunks stay off the reservaton, whats the problem. I mean, common sense says stick their version of a border crossing sitting at what apparently is the only road going and coming into the reservation from that community, and deny entry to any drunk or person with "contraband". Alchohol problem solved. Oh but wait - that would require them to do for themselves wouldn't it?

#7 - much ado is made about the "rich" tribes who profit from gambling - but the article predates the Prairie Wind Casino - which includes a 78 room hotel (6 with jacuzzis!) that was built at an estimated cost of ~20Million. The tribal government recieves the proceeds - but who knows what they do with them..... Oh they have a restaurant that seats about 180 people too....
http://www.prairiewindcasino.com/index.htm

#8 - the article bemoans the lack of resources/employment opportunities for the reservation inhabitants - due to the level of poverty. However, the USDA 2002 report indicated that there were over $33 MILLION worth of agricultural sales on the reservation during that year, but only a small portion of it went to tribal members. Again we refer to #5 - since apparently all the unemployed drunk immigrants were actually there cultivating and selling some form of agriculture under the very noses of this reporter and the national government - without being noticed.

I could continue, but in the above we can see that the article as written is designed to emotionally pull heart strings and paint the bleakest picture available to the reader. In that - it succeeds, but at the cost of showing the lack of "journalistic integrity" of the writer once the reality is examined.

Do you think a $20 Million dollar casino is going to open up in the midst of a spot where "59% of the homes are substandard" and "33% of the homes lack basic water and sewage systems, as well as electricity"? Yea, thats really going to bring in the tourists. Especially since the article claims that 80% of the residents suffer from alcoholism, people are regularly found frozen to death, there is little to no health care, one mediocre grocery store, etc.

But even though people are dying off left and right from all this - the population is growing with all the immigrants....

I dunno about any of you, but if I was going to invest in a $20 Million dollar casino - that isn't quite where I would go.

Oh - before I forget - lets not forget the article stating that just about every state that borders the reservation is poisioning the water supply with runnoff of pesticides.... My god - is this place built at the bottom of a bowl and every place around is higher so they get all the water runoff?

No - what this is - is a "pity us" piece, ripe with every negative that can be found, ignoring the role of self determination for the people and the nation as a whole, which they are (or were if we take the author at her word) failing at miserably.

I don't say that the US Government is blameless, but remember that as an independant nation - they have a responsibility to their own people, and its obvious by the data shared by the writer if taken at face value, that they have failed in that responsibility. But its always easier to blame others instead of acting to improve yourself. They operate under the same treaties and regulation as other tribes - and those other tribes prosper where they fail - and somehow that is the fault of everyone else.....

#1 Things really haven't changed that much in 4 years.

#2 Feel free to provide links to disprove the facts, such as average life span in the reservation etc.

#3 The population is rising just like it rises in developing nations and in places after big wars. We had a big population jump after WW2 in Finland. The kids that are born are counted in the population although they might die of infant death, neglect due to alcoholism, etc. reasons. And if a kid lives to be, say, 17 and is killed due to crime/drugs/alcohol/etc. then that's not really a 'proper' life, now is it?

#4 Many propbably don't count themselves into the official tribe, not sure what the politics are behind that. I do know that even the Oglala are pretty divided on issues, partly because of outside influence. Many people who are partly Sioux but mostly white have a vote in their affairs, easy way to keep them down.

#5 Funny to call a reservate an "independent nation". Real funny. And to flip this into an immigration issue, really hilarious. How about you extricate yourself out of the States, you're an immigrant. You are not in your own country.

#6 Not exactly sure what you mean. Alcoholism is rife in the reservation and the US alcohol producers are all too happy to make a bundle off it. As far as enforcing prohibition, I don't think the Oglala reservation is infact a "nation". If it's a country of it's own then does it have, for example, a seat in the UN etc.? I don't think so.

#7 The casinos are a good way to put more alcohol into the reservation, and to take money out of the native peoples pockets to people like the alcohol producers that provide the casinos with alcohol products. Native people naturally carry the risks and if the venture goes belly up they take the hit.

#8 Wouldn't surprise me if the white Americans would be doing the selling and the buing in the reservations too. While naturally having ownership of native people's holy places like the Black Hills.

Reading what you write, I feel like I am discussing the treatment of Jews in a concentration camps with a nazi. Sorry but I can't help it, and it kind of makes it difficult for me to have this discussion.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Why, you got your John Wayne - gear on and are raring for some Indian shooting - action?

John Wayne was a movie star. What does that have to do with a still living resistance? Come on guy, the American Indian might still harbor some feelings about it but that usually last about a second after calculating the casinos take for the day.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Here's some info on the condition on the Pine Ridge Oglala (Sioux) Reservation of SD. Gives some idea about what kind of conditions native people have to live in, in the modern day equivalents of concentration camps.

http://www.linkcenterfoundation.org/id24.html

First of all, this is a 4 year old article. What is the place like today? Second, is this the only place people live in squaller? Well, no. American Indian, black, white, yellow and any other color of the spectrum live in similar condition here in the US. The American Indian did not corner the market on this type of living.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

John Wayne was a movie star. What does that have to do with a still living resistance? Come on guy, the American Indian might still harbor some feelings about it but that usually last about a second after calculating the casinos take for the day.

That's a pretty racist way to think especially considering how false it is. After all your help to the Haitians you were the last person I pegged as a racist. Guess I was wrong.

[Dowly]

Jebus OTH, you see racism in everything, don't you?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

That's a pretty racist way to think especially considering how false it is. After all your help to the Haitians you were the last person I pegged as a racist. Guess I was wrong.

Hardly racist or a way to think friend. It is fact. Cold hard reality of the matter. You have singled out one group. Encompass all groups sir. Let just say you are racist against white America. After all, in your view white America is the cause for all of this. Correct? Really, get off the high horse. I help all across the board with relief OTH, you on the other hand are the armchair keyboard jockey that likes to stir the crap. When you get into the trenches helping others let me know.

Moving along, I have seen enough in this thread.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Hardly racist or a way to think friend. It is fact. Cold hard reality of the matter. You have singled out one group. Encompass all groups sir. Let just say you are racist against white America. After all, in your view white America is the cause for all of this. Correct?

White, yellow, black. I don't differentiate. I just wish the "red" man would get some justice in the end. I mean they are even talking about paying slave reparations to the descendents of slaves. Are the natives completely forgotten? Just wipe away their cultures and no more problem?

Really, get off the high horse. I help all across the board with relief OTH, you on the other hand are the armchair keyboard jockey that likes to stir the crap. When you get into the trenches helping others let me know.

Moving along, I have seen enough in this thread.

Ok you know what, I'm going to go the Amazon jungle, wipe out some native tribe and build a house where they used to live. Then you will appreciate me, right?