A date that shall live in infamy !

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I noticed a thread over in the SHIII forums which made me think "God, is it Dec 7th already?" and check the date on the computer calender.
Obviously it doesn't have the same tone over here as it does in the States, but it's still something that echoes throughout time as one of the most devastating military attacks that at the same time completely failed in its objective. It won't be long now, another two years in fact, before it's the 70th anniversary, seventy years and still the oil leaks from the Arizona, like a wound that will never heal, and for many veterans of that day, I guess that is the perfect analogy.

Just think of the Royal Oak.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Dowly

How?

The Japanese learned the hard way what happens when atoms are split. I would say that was the best thing to come out of WW2. We've never used those awful weapons again and hopefully we never will.

[Ducimus]

Unless im mistaken, the reason why it was labeled a "day of infamy" was not just because it was a sneak attack, but because the attack occured before Japan had declared war. Yes they had the declaration in the works, and indeed was on its way, but the fact of the matter is, they instigated a full scale attack, BEFORE a declaration of war was delivered. If Japan had declared war or delivered some forceful ultimatum before instigating any attack against any US locale, I don't think we'd look at it in quite the same way that we do today.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Unless im mistaken, the reason why it was labeled a "day of infamy" was not just because it was a sneak attack, but because the attack occured before Japan had declared war. Yes they had the declaration in the works, and indeed was on its way, but the fact of the matter is, they instigated a full scale attack, BEFORE a declaration of war was delivered. If Japan had declared war or delivered some forceful ultimatum before instigating any attack against any US locale, I don't think we'd look at it in quite the same way that we do today.

Next time, get someone who can type faster.

It's been interesting to see all of the research being put into the midget subs. They are so often just a minor footnote in the attack. I think it would make a great movie, the story of those 5 midget suba and their fates. (Not hollywood produced as they would ruin it)

[Ducimus]

What? No Micheal Bay direction?

edit:

[CaptainHaplo]

Dowly - I am half German. (I am also part Scottish and part Irish - which makes for a really mean drunk!) My mother is a naturalized US citizen. I talked to an old man years ago. His wife, he and I started talking at a veterans gathering on a previous Pearl Harbor day. When the subject of Pearl came up, he shied away from it - and I politely steered the discussion elsewhere. His wife stopped us both, looked at him and said "Tell the young man." - and he did.

He was an Austrian Jew, 14 or so at the time when Pearl happened. He was "living" in a slave camp. He did nothing but work 18+ hours a day, to crawl back to his "bed" and do it all over again. He was ready to die, mentally. I forget the term he used, but he told me about a person who was in the camps too - a person who would collaborate with the guards to gain favor, but they would also do what they could to look out for their people. He had tears in his eyes when he told me about what happened. One day, as he was slaving away, this person came up to him, tapped his shoulder, and after making sure no guards were around - opened his coat to show him the front page of a newspaper. All he was able to read was the headlines - and they said "JAPAN attacks PEARL HARBOR, US declares war on JAPAN and GERMANY.". He broke down at that moment - and then composed himself. He slowly told me what that meant. It meant that he had hope. Before he saw that - he had none. When he saw it - he knew that we were coming. Hope is a powerful thing. That hope - helped keep him and others alive. 3 years later - the camp he was in was liberated. In that time frame - the people helped each other simply by reminding them of hope - we were coming. And ultimately, we did.

Make no mistake - had it not been for Pearl Harbor - the US entrance into the war would have been drastically delayed - if not inevitably delayed. I do not claim we won the war on our own, to do so would dishonor the memory of so many other peoples that made just as large sacrifices. But without that event - its very likely that you would be speaking German right now.

Yes - it changed the world. On a number of fronts. Some for the better - and perhaps some for the worse.

But I can tell you this - there is no doubt that for many men - the world changed that day, in many ways.

[magic452]

Very interesting story to hear how someone in another country and far different circumstances viewed the event and how it effected him.

We tend to only see Pearl Harbor as an American event.

My mothers brother was stationed at Pearl on 7 Dec. 1941.
Unfortunately I was never able to talk to him about it as he was killed in January of '44 on New Britain, South Pacific. Oddly enough he was still a private, but I guess that's no surprise as he was also German and Irish and if he's three brothers were any indication quit a hell raiser.

Magic

Without US entry, I don't think Europe would be speaking german.
More than likely, russian.
Thank you, USA ! ! !

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

But were you call your enemy infamous for having fought as best as he could, all you get is my laughter.

Roosevelt didn't use the term "Infamy" because the attackers fought the best they could. He used it in part because, as was previously described, it was an attack made before the declaration of war. He used it because he was angry, because he wanted to inspire his fellow Americans to the same anger, and, yes, there was a bit of propaganda involved, as there always is in any speech of that type.

As with any other discussion of war, including the many we've had on war crimes, the times and circumstances need to be taken into account before any judgement is made of the people who were involved.

[Lionclaw]

Wouldn't a decleration of war remove the element of suprise?

Psst! Hey, we're going to declare war on you, just so you know. So you'll be ready.

Maximum damage to enemy forces is best achieved when you catch them unawares. Feels like a "Well, duh!" moment.

No disrespect meant.



Didn't they see the incoming aircraft on radar, but they thought it was B-17's or something?

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Lionclaw

Wouldn't a decleration of war remove the element of suprise?

Psst! Hey, we're going to declare war on you, just so you know. So you'll be ready.

Maximum damage to enemy forces is best achieved when you catch them unawares. Feels like a "Well, duh!" moment.

No disrespect meant.



Didn't they see the incoming aircraft on radar, but they thought it was B-17's or something?

The Japanese Embassy was supposed to deliver the DOW at the about the same time as the attack took place. It was delivered over an hour late, due to the confusion that resulted when two "correction" messages were received: one amending a single word, and the other announcing that a sentence had been dropped in transmission. The first meant the retyping of one page, and the second two pages. As it was the 14 part message contained several typographical errors but Ambassador Nomura tired of the delay, delivered it anyway. Even if it had been delivered on time, it still would have been a surprise attack since there would have been precious little time to get a warning out. However, the DOW arriving after the attack had been delivered, compounded the outrage and anger many Americans felt at the time.

Yes, the incoming strike was observed on an experimental radar station, but was dismissed as B-17s from the mainland.

[Lionclaw]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The Japanese Embassy was supposed to deliver the DOW at the about the same time as the attack took place. It was delivered over an hour late, due to the confusion that resulted when two "correction" messages were received: one amending a single word, and the other announcing that a sentence had been dropped in transmission. The first meant the retyping of one page, and the second two pages. As it was the 14 part message contained several typographical errors but Ambassador Nomura tired of the delay, delivered it anyway. Even if it had been delivered on time, it still would have been a surprise attack since there would have been precious little time to get a warning out. However, the DOW arriving after the attack had been delivered, compounded the outrage and anger many Americans felt at the time.

Yes, the incoming strike was observed on an experimental radar station, but was dismissed as B-17s from the mainland.

Ok, thanks.

Saw now that Ducimus mentioned about the decleration of war, before I posted.

[Oberon]

It was a masterful attack, one cannot deny it but as Yamamoto said, its success was short lived. Could Japan have actually won the war against America? No...no, I don't think so, once America fully mobilised and got its factories up and running at strength, it was just a matter of time.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Roosevelt didn't use the term "Infamy" because the attackers fought the best they could. He used it in part because, as was previously described, it was an attack made before the declaration of war. He used it because he was angry, because he wanted to inspire his fellow Americans to the same anger, and, yes, there was a bit of propaganda involved, as there always is in any speech of that type.

As with any other discussion of war, including the many we've had on war crimes, the times and circumstances need to be taken into account before any judgement is made of the people who were involved.

Roosevelt was not surprised by the fact that japan started war, because I follow those historians saying that provoking that attack by his stangling oil policy was his only way to bring america into the war, something the congress and the wide public strongly opposed untilm Pearl Harbour. Roosevelt most liekly was not surpsied by the Japanese attacking, but probbaly by the sheer scale of the initial attack. and it always is two different things to just talk about and plan for war, and then being confronted by real war in reality. The american policy left the Japanese only two choices, to either withdraw as a strategic major player from the Pacific and leave it to the US, or to hope defeating america in a war. cinsidering their imperial attitude oif that time and the mindset of their traditional code, it was to be expected that they would strike.

Declaration of wars - when you decided to start killing hundreds of thousands and destroy whole cities, i think these civilised acts of elaborated manners loose in relevance. leave them for times of peace and the dinnerhalls and the party at the embassy. In war, the dead are still as dead as before - with or without such a declaration.

Be hesitent to launch war, but when you do, let nothing, really nothing come between you and the ultimate destruction of your enemy. and that is what the Japanese followed. When they decided for war, they planned, prepared, hid as best as they could, and deceived the americans as best as they could, and then struck with all force like a lightning out of the blue sky. They acted with maximum determination and without hesitation form the moment on they decided for war. No time for romantising the bloody business that lied ahead! If it would have gone as the embassy planned, Washington would have gotten the war declaration just minutes ahead of the attck - an you want to tell me that it would have made or would have meant a difference...? You would complain about that they did not give oyu the warning time oyu needed to ready your forces in a better way. In other words: you expect the Japanese to act stupid, and then complain about them not complying with your intention. that is absurd!

There is one war movie aboiut WWI, where an american squadron arrives in europe, and one american pilot refuses to follow all this nonsens thing abiut honiur and muttual respect between English and Germna pilots. He behaved like a wild boar in the sky and shot and killed everything that moved, refused to save injured enemies, and payed them no respect whatever. Initially them English attacked him for that. they were not sitting in the trenches and suffered the misery of the ordinbary infantryman, but were fighting like knights in the sky and considered themselves to be gentleman members of the same noble class like the german pilots. that way, they lost against the Germans - and even saluted then Germans for their superiority! BIG TIME BULLSH!T. That American flyer was right from the first day on, the air war became more nasty, and the dominance of the german air force started to wane.

I have another famous story, that is attributed to a heroic figure in Japan, Musashi. He is said to have gotten into hot argument with a local landlord where he stayed. Samurai that they are, they fix a duel for the morning of the next day, and Musashi leaves. On the next morning, the lord has a little parade, and his guards and the servants and the flag carriers all leave the castle and marchd to the beach. No Musashi there. They wait, but Musashi does not come. the lord becomes angry, but you are a lord and a samurai, you see, so you just keep your countenance. He waits. It becomes noon - No Musashi anywhere. the lord is boiling in his own anger, and tries to rather keep his face unmoved. The hours pass. when the sun starts to set, a boat appeares on the sea, and approaches the beach. The lord calls his servants to order, a nice looking parade, and althoug being angry, he feels the need to follow the rules of staying calm and polite and he starts to greet his oppent, planning his death soon after. They stand on the beach, where the boat just hits the sand. The lord starts greeting Musashi. Musashi does not greet in return, just jumps out of the boat with his sword over his head, let hear his war cry and smashes the lords skull with one powerful stroke. then he is back in the boat and rudders back to the sea, leaving behind a completely stunned audience. - That'S how it is done, Steve. All that rules of honour and politeness and the parade and paying respect - once the war, the fight is decided, all that does not change a thing, it does not mean anything, it only is BIG TIME BULLSH!T. When you have decided for the fight - be a raging bull with mean eyes: strike, shatter, kill. Simply that.

You fight, or you don't. Let there be no in-between. And if God himself steps in your way hindering you to kill your enemy - kill God first, and then kill your enemy.

America did not udnerstand this. And that'S why Pearl Harbour became possible. It was an American failure, a lacking understanding of the culture and nature of the enemy and the way he is ticking. the japanese in return underestimated the industrial potential of the US, and the way a war would rally american public opinion around the flag. but even if they knew it I wonder if they would have taken the alternative to voluntarily withdraw as a big player from the Pacific gameboard. I doubt it.

[Oberon]

I see where you're coming from there Skybird, and agree that the United States and indeed the world completely underestimated the Japanese way of the warrior, and the Bushido spirit which presented itself in the kamikaze attacks, Banzai charges and holdouts. Heck, I, as a westerner, find it very hard to get my head around the mentality of that.

What you describe is a very basic view of war and fighting and at the end of the day it is what it boils down to, however over the years there have been rules and codes of conduct, even to some extent the Bushido, drawn up around conflict as an attempt by humanity to elevate ourselves above animals, but when it boils down to single one on one hand to hand conflict in a foxhole, you don't wait for the other guy to draw his weapon first, you maximise your potential to survive the battle and you strike first whilst he is unprepared, he dies and you survive.

But, this sociological discussion is far from the point of the opening post which is not to discuss the political ramifications of the attack of December the 7th, but to remember those on Hawaii who died during the attack, who, due to the modern nature of war and the chain of command, never saw the attack coming until the first torpedo detonated against the hull of the first target.