Captain does and doesn't - Page 2

JScones · 11-02-09, 07:54 PM

I've always found Wolfgang Lüth's PROBLEMS OF LEADERSHIP IN A SUBMARINE lecture from DEC43 insightful. I recommend reading it to get an idea of life onboard his boat...from the man himself (not 20 years later by hearsay).

But pls bear in mind two things when reading:

1. Lüth was an IX Kaleun, thus his techniques are tuned for longer cruises. His approach would unlikely be as practical in II or VII boats, ie the majority of cases.

2. Many of his colleagues, including the Subsim-favourite Buchheim (Das Boot), ridiculed his speech and found his approach to management laughable, suggesting that his ideal was the exception rather than the norm. Indeed, Jordan Vause in his book U-Boat Ace: The Story of Wolfgang Luth states in response "that many officers in the German military establishment at the time, officers young and old, did not think it necessary to "like" their crews or to take care of them, any more than they accepted the idea of a crew as an extended family and the captain a surrogate father. It was not unusual for officers to be successful and disliked, even hated, at the same time."

Just offered to reaffirm the diversity and prove that extreme comments such as "Kaleuns always wiped their crew's butts" are just as wrong (if not moreso) as "Kaleuns never spoke to their crews".

Ducimus · 11-03-09, 04:48 PM

One thing that bears mentioning is the Do's and Don't's change based on nationality. I think the line between what is true a US Navy Submarine Captain and a Germain Uboat captain is sometimes blured.

The command structure is entirely different in a fleet boat vs a uboat. A US Navy Captain had a Fire control party, and sometimes had his exec man the periscope, who was taking the range, bearing and AOB for him while he focused on the larger picture. For a Kreigsmarine Captain, this was probably unheard of.

Sailor Steve · 11-03-09, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

One thing that bears mentioning is the Do's and Don't's change based on nationality. I think the line between what is true a US Navy Submarine Captain and a Germain Uboat captain is sometimes blured.

The command structure is entirely different in a fleet boat vs a uboat. A US Navy Captain had a Fire control party, and sometimes had his exec man the periscope, who was taking the range, bearing and AOB for him while he focused on the larger picture. For a Kreigsmarine Captain, this was probably unheard of.

On the other hand the Kriegsmarine, like the Royal Navy, had a separate Engineering section, whose officers were outside the command structure. The US Navy had junior officers assigned as division heads, and their postings changed between ships until they learned every phase of shipboard operations.

I think the duties of the captain himself were fairly similar in all navies though, regarding what he did and what he didn't do.

Alex · 11-03-09, 06:15 PM

@ JS :

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

[...] states in response "that many officers in the German military establishment at the time, officers young and old, did not think it necessary to "like" their crews or to take care of them, any more than they accepted the idea of a crew as an extended family and the captain a surrogate father" [...]

Of course that doesn't mean it was the usual way of taking care of a crew, but I do think there was indeed a certain idea of family among the crew members of the same U-Boot.
Erich Topp himself stated that it was called « kamaradschaft » (companionship).

11-02-09, 07:54 PM	#1
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I've always found Wolfgang Lüth's PROBLEMS OF LEADERSHIP IN A SUBMARINE lecture from DEC43 insightful. I recommend reading it to get an idea of life onboard his boat...from the man himself (not 20 years later by hearsay). But pls bear in mind two things when reading: 1. Lüth was an IX Kaleun, thus his techniques are tuned for longer cruises. His approach would unlikely be as practical in II or VII boats, ie the majority of cases. 2. Many of his colleagues, including the Subsim-favourite Buchheim (Das Boot), ridiculed his speech and found his approach to management laughable, suggesting that his ideal was the exception rather than the norm. Indeed, Jordan Vause in his book U-Boat Ace: The Story of Wolfgang Luth states in response "that many officers in the German military establishment at the time, officers young and old, did not think it necessary to "like" their crews or to take care of them, any more than they accepted the idea of a crew as an extended family and the captain a surrogate father. It was not unusual for officers to be successful and disliked, even hated, at the same time." Just offered to reaffirm the diversity and prove that extreme comments such as "Kaleuns always wiped their crew's butts" are just as wrong (if not moreso) as "Kaleuns never spoke to their crews". Last edited by JScones; 11-02-09 at 08:20 PM.

11-03-09, 04:48 PM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	One thing that bears mentioning is the Do's and Don't's change based on nationality. I think the line between what is true a US Navy Submarine Captain and a Germain Uboat captain is sometimes blured. The command structure is entirely different in a fleet boat vs a uboat. A US Navy Captain had a Fire control party, and sometimes had his exec man the periscope, who was taking the range, bearing and AOB for him while he focused on the larger picture. For a Kreigsmarine Captain, this was probably unheard of.