Going too far?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

The Japanese have been gearing up to fight the US since the early 1900's. I think we would have butted heads sooner or later.

I agree. Two players in the same field - was one too much. Although I think that the Japanese hoped for long time to acchieve a balance of power that resulted in a stable coexistence with America. In the late 30s they maybe started to realise that war with the US would nevertheless be a real possibility in the future, but I think they still hoped to avoid it. Imo the constellation nevertheless was so critical and ripe with potential conflict that the war was unavoidable even if both nations would have hoped to avoid it. Sometimes - things simply do not work the way you wish them to work, and never had a chance to function from the very beginning. It's then called wishful thinking.

And I just have the strange feeling of a deja vu, as if I have dreamed to have written exactly this posting before, right down to every typo I produced and corrected...

[FIREWALL]

I'm more wondering if HISTORY might have been changed.


@ Skybird.... Good point.
@ Niki ..... Good point.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I'm more wondering if HISTORY might have been changed.


@ Skybird.... Good point.
@ Niki ..... Good point.

sheesh, history would be different! Japan would have never been nuked and thus, there would never be any godzilla movies!

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

sheesh, history would be different! Japan would have never been nuked and thus, there would never be any godzilla movies!

Trivia question: What was the event that was used as a basis for the plot of Gojira in 1954?

[antikristuseke]

The real question is weather Japan was nuked because it is weird or is Japan weird because it got nuked?

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

The real question is weather Japan was nuked because it is weird or is Japan weird because it got nuked?

The real and slightly more firghtening answer to that question is both.

[CaptainHaplo]

It is so true that history is written by the neutral observerr, propaganda is written by the victor.

Ultimately, Columbus was not looking for new lands to exploit. When new lands to exploit were found - the European powers had no ethical issues with doing so. "Americans" often forget how much of our own history is one of exploitation, and I am not talking about slavery (though that is an issue too, and not merely a "southern" one as some believe). During the centuries, the US government violated most of its treaties with the major indian tribes. Even today. there are a couple of tribes who still are technically at war with the US Government. One I distinctly recall being based in Florida.

Maybe its not just gators that get ya if you wander in the swamps?

The history of humanity, regardless of "nationality", is one of exploitation. To say otherwise is to ignore history. Columbus was no doubt a historical figure. His actions were what they were. Was he an "evil" man? No more so than any other person who opens a door. While his own acts may be judged, he is not personally responsible for anything more than his own acts. The exploitation that followed he did not choose.

To each person belongs the responsibilities of their own decisions, not the decisions of the rest of the world.

[Freiwillige]

I agree with Skybird that Roosevelt was itching to provoke something with Japan so that his hand would no longer be tied by the isolationists. I think that he figured the Japanese would eventually attack one of our assets closer to Japan or the Dutch east indies. I doubt he wasn't shocked when Pearl Harbor was attacked, and so effectively at that.

He was already prodding congress to act in speeches given about coming to England's cause. And he admitted in his memoirs to misleading the American people for their own good.

And as far as nuking Japan. It happened for several reasons.

1. As a show piece to make Stalin think twice, Since he was saber rattling already both in the east and the west and pushing for more land grabs.

2. To see the effects of our new super weapon. It was tested on cities that had thus far escaped major damage in the war.

America knew that Japan was about to throw in the towel and had approached Russia about a diplomatic end. The only stipulation was that they kept their emperor. We bombed them and let them keep their emperor anyways.

Politicians are always more devious than the Generals in the field.

Judging a 15th Century person by 21st Centuriy morality is a flawed paradigm, only the arrogance of political correctness allows.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Judging a 15th Century person by 21st Centuriy morality is a flawed paradigm,

My first thought was something like this, too, but I then deleted it because the basic drives of civilisations do not seem to have changed over centuries, if not millenias. Or maybe one should more neutrally say "the ways in which civilisations rise, culminate and fall, often from their own hands". The gaining of new ressources needed at home to support growing populations has been a prime motive from the first tribes to the latest empires.

The problem often becoming obvious here is that additional ressources not often resulted in stockpiling them for times of shortness, to support the population then and enable them to survive despite the failed harvets, for example, but that new ressources always get invested for an ever growing population size. By stockpiling ressources I also mean to maintain agriculture and use of natural ressourceslike wood in way that preserve them not only for the next five years, but for the next dozen of generations, or longer. In other words: no matter how much you win and gain - it simply never will be enough. It necessarily leads to a condition of lethal environmental destruction (disappearing forest, erosion of soil, lacking animals that could be hunted) where the excessively grown population got reduced by hunger, unrest, war, disease. And if the technical status of the civilisation in question already had reached the maximum of it's possible geographical reach and no new areas of potential ressources were accessible, the whole civilisation collapsed and died.

We are too damn many people on earth. That makes any call against birth and population size control a capital crime against humanity, imo.

Originally Posted by Skybird

My first thought was something like this, too, but I then deleted it because the basic drives of civilisations do not seem to have changed over centuries, if not millenias. Or maybe one should more neutrally say "the ways in which civilisations rise, culminate and fall, often from their own hands". The gaining of new ressources needed at home to support growing populations has been a prime motive from the first tribes to the latest empires.

The problem often becoming obvious here is that additional ressources not often resulted in stockpiling them for times of shortness, to support the population then and enable them to survive despite the failed harvets, for example, but that new ressources always get invested for an ever growing population size. By stockpiling ressources I also mean to maintain agriculture and use of natural ressourceslike wood in way that preserve them not only for the next five years, but for the next dozen of generations, or longer. In other words: no matter how much you win and gain - it simply never will be enough. It necessarily leads to a condition of lethal environmental destruction (disappearing forest, erosion of soil, lacking animals that could be hunted) where the excessively grown population got reduced by hunger, unrest, war, disease. And if the technical status of the civilisation in question already had reached the maximum of it's possible geographical reach and no new areas of potential ressources were accessible, the whole civilisation collapsed and died.

We are too damn many people on earth. That makes any call against birth and population size control a capital crime against humanity, imo.

Except we are not talking about a civilization/culture. Christo Columbo was but one man. Can we really blame the faults of an entire civilization on one man? Or visa versa? I think not. He was but the product of that civilization, not its creator. A better lesson would be to focus on the culture of the times, which is what you may be saying but I can't tell, than on one individual and claim he is any better or worse than the rest of the culture of the time.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Except we are not talking about a civilization/culture. Christo Columbo was but one man. Can we really blame the faults of an entire civilization on one man? Or visa versa? I think not. He was but the product of that civilization, not its creator. A better lesson would be to focus on the culture of the times, which is what you may be saying but I can't tell, than on one individual and claim he is any better or worse than the rest of the culture of the time.

I agree with you, but not completely.
When I started studying history here, my first seminar was on early colonialism (for those interested, I have some recommended reading on the topic, though most of it is in German). It was quite interesting, to say the least, and apart from all the atrocities that really did happen, it was a tremendous mental challenge for all involved. We can't, and shouldn't, expect that these people could grasp all of the consequences of their actions, much like it will be only for later generations to assess our current actions. Not that we shouldn't write contemporary history - but some things, and often the most important ones, only become clear in retrospect.
I wouldn't let ole Chris completely off the hook though. One of the reasons is that even to his contemporaries, his behavior seemed extraordinarily harsh and cruel, so we cannot simply blame it on the "spirit of the times", if you will.
He couldn't change that "spirit", but he can be held responsible for how he acted within that framework.

[Skybird]

Columbus was a "kid of his time", but that time, despite differences to our present, nevertheless shared patterns of functioning and drives that compare to those motivations driving the world today. I do not see past and present ike black and white, and thus strictly different, or strictly the same. Some things are different today, and some still are very much the same. What appeared tohave not chnaged that much I tried to line out in the above - and that these variables are amongst those that have not chnaged that much is a reason for concern today, for it puts our global civilisational survival into question.

Possible that I mismatch "civilisational" and "cultural" here, the meaning of both terms are somewhat the other way around in English and German, but I wonder if I correctly understood it. English "civilisation" seems to be what German means by "Kultur" and "German "Zivilisation" seems to mean what English labels as "culture". I try to take this different understanding into account, but maybe I nevertheless use the wrong words at times. Joys of foreign language...

Originally Posted by Shearwater

He couldn't change that "spirit", but he can be held responsible for how he acted within that framework.

Ya mean this framework?

1402: Ottoman and Timurid Empires fight at the Battle of Ankara resulting in Timur's capture of Bayezid I.

1410: The Battle of Grunwald was the decisive battle of the Polish–Lithuanian–Teutonic War leading to the downfall of the Teutonic Knights.

1415: Henry the Navigator leads the conquest of Ceuta from the Moors marking the beginning of the Portuguese Empire.

1415: Battle of Agincourt fought between the Kingdom of England and France

1420–1434: Hussite Wars in Bohemia

1441: Portuguese navigators cruise West Africa and reestablish the European slave trade with a shipment of African slaves sent directly from Africa to Portugal.

1444: Ottoman Empire under Sultan Murad II defeats the Polish and Hungarian armies under Władysław III of Poland and János Hunyadi at the Battle of Varna.

1453: The Fall of Constantinople marks the end of the Byzantine Empire and the beginning of the Growth of the Ottoman Empire.

1453: The Battle of Castillon is the last engagement of the Hundred Years' War and the first battle in European history where cannons were a major factor in deciding the battle.

1454–1466: After defeating the Teutonic Knights in the Thirteen Years' War, Poland annexes Royal Prussia.

1455–1485: Wars of the Roses – English civil war between the House of York and the House of Lancaster.

1456: The Siege of Belgrade halts the Ottoman's advance into Europe.

That's just the first half of the 15th Century. It was a violent time when people died and were subjected to many things which would be considered attrocities today.

Columbo (1451–1506) was also a contemporary of Leonardo da Vinci, (1452–1519), and much of da Vinci's work was warlike and brutal, in its concept. Would you criticize da Vinci? He didn't raise his own sword, that we know of, but he did contribute to the world of the 15th century which we in the 21st century would consider brutal.

[Shearwater]

Could you elucidate why that contradicts what I have said in my previous post, CB?