Suicidal Chinese Man Pushed Over Edge

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

The difference is - legal assisted suicide (in the us as least) requires the person who dies to be suffering from mid to late stages of a terminal illness.

Just wanting to end it for the sake of ending it when there is life to be lived - isnt the same deal.

Also - assisted suicide is used for those that wish to die, but cannot bear to commit the act themselves. There are numerous reasons for this - including some religious ones. Pushing a jumper - is assualt with intent to kill at the least.

What if the pusher knew there were safety devices in place below and was simply trying to expedite the situation?

[SUBMAN1]

26'? That's it? There is a good chance you might survive from that height. Can't say much for your broken bones though.

Not a very suicidal person if that is all the height he had.

-S

[bookworm_020]

Here is a video of it

http://media.smh.com.au/national/national-news

[August]

Originally Posted by porphy

Obviously the only one looking for attention was the pusher. He will rightfully find himself in court, hopefully charged with attempted murder.

Is it really attempted murder with a huge and brightly covered air bag positioned just a few feet right below the pushee?

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by August

Is it really attempted murder with a huge and brightly covered air bag positioned just a few feet right below the pushee?

A bag that wasn't fully inflated before the guy pushed him! He should be greatful that the guy he pushed isn't sueing him for pain and suffering!

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by August

Is it really attempted murder with a huge and brightly covered air bag positioned just a few feet right below the pushee?

Heh, hell no. I, for one, guarantee that many people on this very board would be thinking about doing the same thing in the same situation...

...however, it doesn't make it right, as much as I'd like it to be. Suicidal people make things difficult as it is hard to punish those who don't really give a damn any longer. That is, until they feel the pain of a couple of broken bones.

Look, I don't advocate pushing any suicidal individual over the brink. However, that being said, I have to ask ... why give a crap? If you're standing on the precipice you better have made your decision, as far as I'm concerned.

If this person really wanted to die, he didn't need to do it so publically. What this person wanted was attention - but he clearly didn't think about the individual he caused to lose his job due to tardiness, that may just kill himself over being unemployed and unable to support his family, but will do so quietly...

Or maybe he did think, and didn't care.

In any case, cops should have nets to fire at fools like this. However, jump or no jump - idiots have no right to interfere with the lives of others.

[FIREWALL]

I think the whole things hilarious.

[Sledgehammer427]

"a huge and brightly covered air bag positioned just a few feet right below the pushee"

obviously the guy was giving a helping hand, like the kids on the slide when they wont go down, the one behind them gives a lil poush and down they go, relieved, so they'd do it again without assistance, in a way, its suicide training!:rotfl:

[porphy]

Originally Posted by August

Is it really attempted murder with a huge and brightly covered air bag positioned just a few feet right below the pushee?

Could very well be. At least in Sweden you can be found guilty of murder by three sorts of legal premeditation.

1. Intention to kill the victim.
2. Circumstances show, or you admit, that you have acted to prevent a person from doing something, by lethal means.
3. You can also be found guilty of murder if you act in a way where you don't really care if the other persons lives or dies, as a result of your earlier intentional actions which you couldn't know the outcome of, but at the same time it can be made probable that you would have acted the same way even if you did knew about the deadly outcome. (This is a close call to manslaughter, but by ruling murder the judge shows that you face full responsibility and a higher degree of punishment.)

To me the person pushing the guy of the bridge should clearly be a suspect of attempted murder along one these lines, probably number three. As the guy that was pushed of did survive it won't be murder, obviously, but the case for attempted murder could follow the same sort of reasoning.

The air bag (half inflated) and the height (26', not a few feet) of the drop are circumstances to take into account, but what really counts is the intention of the pusher. His reason stated to the police was that he was fed up with selfish people that doesn't dare to kill themselves but seek attention and also disrupt public life. That could very well be the motive for an attempted murder. From what we know about his motive, he might have tried to push the guy in a way so he would fall 26 feet (7-8 meters) and miss the air bag or hit it before it was fully functional, as he was so upset with this selfish man that he thought himself righteous to cause him harm or even death.

So, in the light of his admittedly brief statement, how is the brightly coloured air bag and the height of 26' (7-8 meters) stopping his motive and actions from fitting well with an attempted murder charge along the lines of 2 or 3? Or even 1?

The thing is, we don't know very much of his intention with the pushing, although we know a bit of his motive, and that combined with his actions certainly makes him a suspect for attempted murder. But only further investigation can show if this is correct, or if he should be charged with something else, as the pushing clearly is legally a crime whether the guy was suicidal or not.


porphy

[Skybird]

His comments must be seen against not our but Chinese cultural background - and that could mean that his anger about the selfishness of one individual will be differently measured by a court, than it would in our Western nations (and our infinite plethora of laws and addendums to laws and special rulings complementing laws and precedences and... and... and...). I do not know the Chinese laws, but even if they equal Western laws in this special circumstances of a situation, it could be that the different culture and different assessement of "individual versus group interest" make the court's judgement somewhat milder. On the other hand one should not forget that it is an authoritarian regime and a social structure traditionally emphasiozing values like obedience and loyalty to laws - which could also lead the man being sentenced quite toughly.

It will also depend on - I assume - whether or not the man can be proven to have been aware (or not) that there was the air cushion below the jumper. If he is found to have been aware of it, I personally eventually would argue to let the pusher go without conseqeunces at all - because he has prevented the suicding guy from moving elsewhere where there was no aircushion, then jumping and killing himself. By pushing the guy, the pusher would have prevented worse outcomes.

I dare no bet what they will do with him. But I'm quite curious.

There is the serious intention to commit suicide, and there is what psychologists call "appellativer Selbstmord" (appealling suicide?) where the threat to commit suicide is meant as a call for help or attention or is a narcissitic tactic of blackmailing. It can be difficult to differ between the two. But in principle I see neither a legal nor an ethical basis to hinder somebody killing himself if he really wants to be dead, and therefore I accept only in case of the latter people - those who are appealing, but not really wanting to be dead - to intervene. However, that intervention already is another ethical problem in itself, eventually. It's tricky business, really, and one should not try to act by a generalised blueprint (to which especially psychologists, jurists and religious zealots are prone), but judge on an individual case-by-case assessment.

Of course, laws that forbid suicide (or even declare death penalty for attempted suicide, like historically it has been the case in some european countries) are not only not helpful, but are simply absurd.

[porphy]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Heh, hell no. I, for one, guarantee that many people on this very board would be thinking about doing the same thing in the same situation...

...however, it doesn't make it right, as much as I'd like it to be. Suicidal people make things difficult as it is hard to punish those who don't really give a damn any longer. That is, until they feel the pain of a couple of broken bones.

Look, I don't advocate pushing any suicidal individual over the brink. However, that being said, I have to ask ... why give a crap? If you're standing on the precipice you better have made your decision, as far as I'm concerned.

If this person really wanted to die, he didn't need to do it so publically. What this person wanted was attention - but he clearly didn't think about the individual he caused to lose his job due to tardiness, that may just kill himself over being unemployed and unable to support his family, but will do so quietly...

Or maybe he did think, and didn't care.

In any case, cops should have nets to fire at fools like this. However, jump or no jump - idiots have no right to interfere with the lives of others.

I totally agree with the last sentance. Idiots thinking and acting as it's a good idea or nothing really wrong with the fact that they themselves, as a private person, decide when to interfere and push other people, suicidal or not, off a bridge should stay well clear of others.

It's no crime to feel that suicidal persons, those lacking the determination when on the edge, or those feigning it for attention, should be pushed off, be it for a helping hand to die or punishing their selfishness by some broken bones or a good scare. To me, that, or "why giving a crap" mostly shows lacking acknowledgement of all the different conditions and situations that can lead a person to become suicidal or act as suicidal, and what to do about it in a responsible way. In many countries suicide is the most common cause of death between 15-44 years of age. It clearly seems to be something to care about, even when someone already is on his way over the railing of a bridge.


In this case the pusher was indicated as suffering from a mental illness of some sort, which might tell us something more about how to view his actions, and possibly any desire to go through with the same as he did.

I don't really know what to make of your saying, that even if some people probably would think like the pusher, it doesn't make it right, although you somehow would like it to be?
In what respect do you want it to be right then? Would you like some change on how to treat suicidal people, or people on the edge of a bridge, be it high or a bit lower, or in public view? Or is it a change about how to view individuals who walk through and then pushes a distressed person off a bridge. The whole take on the issue seems to still be a bit undecided or unclear.


Time for todays running. I'm really looking forward to the uphill training... not.

Porphy

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by porphy

I totally agree with the last sentance. Idiots thinking and acting as it's a good idea or nothing really wrong with the fact that they themselves, as a private person, decide when to interfere and push other people, suicidal or not, off a bridge should stay well clear of others.

It's no crime to feel that suicidal persons, those lacking the determination when on the edge, or those feigning it for attention, should be pushed off, be it for a helping hand to die or punishing their selfishness by some broken bones or a good scare. To me, that, or "why giving a crap" mostly shows lacking acknowledgement of all the different conditions and situations that can lead a person to become suicidal or act as suicidal, and what to do about it in a responsible way. In many countries suicide is the most common cause of death between 15-44 years of age. It clearly seems to be something to care about, even when someone is on his way over the railing of a bridge.


In this case the pusher was indicated as suffering from a mental illness of some sort, which might tell us something more about how to view his actions, and possibly any desire to go through with the same as he did.

I don't really know what to make of your saying, that even if some people probably would think like the pusher, it doesn't make it right, although you somehow would like it to be?
In what respect do you want it to be right then? Would you like some change on how to treat suicidal people, or people on the edge of a bridge, be it high or a bit lower, or in public view? Or is it a change about how to view individuals who walk through and then pushes a distressed person off a bridge. The whole take on the issue seems to still be a bit undecided or unclear.


Time for todays running. I'm really looking forward to the uphill training... not.

Porphy

What? Cant read a word of it. Black font not a good idea as most use 'smart dark'

[porphy]

Thanks. Looks alright now? Removed some formating. I use haylazblue, but changed to smartdark, and it looks alright with white text now.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by porphy

Thanks. Looks alright now? Removed some formating. I use haylazblue, but changed to smartdark, and it looks alright with white text now.

Better thanks.

[Aramike]

I don't really know what to make of your saying, that even if some people probably would think like the pusher, it doesn't make it right, although you somehow would like it to be?
In what respect do you want it to be right then? Would you like some change on how to treat suicidal people, or people on the edge of a bridge, be it high or a bit lower, or in public view? Or is it a change about how to view individuals who walk through and then pushes a distressed person off a bridge. The whole take on the issue seems to still be a bit undecided or unclear.

That's because my opinion is divided. On the one hand, I can see the pusher's point. On the other hand is my respect for humanities. Mix that in with a pinch of incredulousness at someone thinking that they might kill themselves from a jump of 26' and I really don't know.