Pentagon says Chinese vessels harassed U.S. ship - Page 2

Hunter · 03-10-09, 03:22 PM

The WW3 tactics would show combined massive missile attacks of Soviet Surface vessels, Subamarines and Air forces against US CV groups like in this movie. Unfortunately, I don't know the title. Looks very natural but definately filmed not in Russia

geetrue · 03-10-09, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaye T. Bai

"All armchair warriors think the U.S. Navy is the most powerful Navy. The truth is that China and Russia are unstoppable. Russia and China are easily capable of sinking all ships in the U.S. Navy, at a fraction of the cost. They are at least two generations ahead of the U.S. in missile technology and they intend to easily destroy the U.S. Navy. When the time comes, they will do it too, I believe."

What do you guys think about the above statement? I personally think it's ridiculous and absurd.

The Russians are so good at developing a fast torpedo ... they have already sunk a one billion dollar submarine ... their own.

Kaye T. Bai · 03-10-09, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

The WWIII tactics would show combined massive missile attacks of Soviet surface vessels, submarines and air forces against U.S. carrier groups like in this movie. Unfortunately, I don't know the title.

That video is from "The Sum Of All Fears," which is a 2002 American movie. The scene in that movie was a great one.

It shows Russian bombers attacking the USS John C. Stennis with super-sonic anti-ship missiles. They fire enough missiles to overwhelm and bypass the ship's defenses.

In my opinion, it was fairly accurate.

Skybird · 03-10-09, 05:02 PM

If a Russian or Chinese special sonar ship would start to track the area close to a major Us submarine base, the US Navy hardly would give it a warm welcome.

So if you behave like this in their playground, don't expect to be given special status.

I also want to remind everybody that a year ago, when the Iranian rubber boats provoked an american flotilla in the Strait of hormuz and reports were released that they radioed they would desztroy the american ships, later the Navy had to step back and take back these reports as well - things seem to have happend a bit different than how the Navy described them.

The time between wars - sees the war of propaganda.

Skybird · 03-10-09, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaye T. Bai

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

The WWIII tactics would show combined massive missile attacks of Soviet surface vessels, submarines and air forces against U.S. carrier groups like in this movie. Unfortunately, I don't know the title. Looks very natural but definately filmed not in Russia.

That is from "The Sum Of All Fears," which is a 2002 American movie. The scene in that movie was a great one.

It shows Russian bombers attacking the USS John C. Stennis with super-sonic anti-ship missiles. They fire enough missiles to overwhelm and bypass the ship's defenses.

In my opinion, it was fairly accurate.

The only way to defeat the flooding of the battlespace with active weapons is to make the enemy running out of ammunition. as long as he has enough ammuntiion, flooding defeats every anti-missile defence system, no matter how expensive it has been. The two winners are the atacker, and the company selling the missile defence to the military. The defender not really wins anything - just some additional seconds.

These hightech things are nice against inferior opponents who by definition cannot stage large scale attacks. Against strong and determined opponents - their value still is unproven. What admiral knowing his business would attack the enemy with just let's say four missiles per ship? Admiral Gorshkow of the Red Banner fleet said the war at sea in WWIII would be very short and very bloody. Attacks at enemy fleets would almost always be staged with guaranteed overkill capacity (regarding weapon quantities).

Max2147 · 03-10-09, 10:20 PM

The US Navy probably cannot be defeated through conventional tactics. But the Millennium Challenge exercise in 2002 showed that the Navy is still vulnerable to unconventional attacks.

That wargame simulated an American attack on Iran. The US Navy tried to sail through the Straits of Hormuz and was annihilated by a combination of Iranian missiles and suicide speedboats. An aircraft carrier and two helicopter carriers were sunk, plus an assortment of escort ships. US casualties would have been around 20,000. The Navy basically had to start the wargame over again, which led to the 'red force' commander resigning in disgust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002
http://www.rense.com/general64/fore.htm

Hunter · 03-11-09, 01:47 AM

[qoute]That video is from "The Sum Of All Fears," which is a 2002 American movie. The scene in that movie was a great one. [/quote]Thanks. I am really inpressed with quality of this scene and going to find this movie for my collection if it is still availible. Though Tom Clansy's fiction about Russians sometimes go wild and I more prefere Harrison Ford as Jack Rayan.[qoute]It shows Russian bombers attacking the USS John C. Stennis with super-sonic anti-ship missiles. They fire enough missiles to overwhelm and bypass the ship's defenses. [/qoute]Overkill was the most favorite tacktic as well as strategy during the Cold war. 50-60 cruise misseles with conventional or nuclear warheads flying below effective radar sight could overhelm every possible air defense.[qoute]The only way to defeat the flooding of the battlespace with active weapons is to make the enemy running out of ammunition. [/qoute]Or you can make your weapones less visible in enemy radars which makes enemy airdefense uneffective as you can't hit what you can't detect.
And heres the possible reason for all that mess. Satellite images have captured the two Type 094 SSBNs docked at the Bohai Shipyard, and one of the submarines was also spotted inside the PLA Navy’s only known nuclear submarine base at Xiaopingdao, Liaoning Province. In April 2008, Federation of American Scientists (FAS) website revealed that a Type 094 SSBN has been deployed to a newly-built nuclear submarine base near Sanyang City on the southern Hainan Island [1].

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type094jin.asp

Kaye T. Bai · 03-11-09, 03:11 AM

Never heard about it Max2147, but it seemed very interesting after reading up on it.

20,000.

Wow.

rubenandthejets · 03-11-09, 07:01 AM

A lot of the hitech wizardry the US relies on might well be offline due to massive hacker / virus attacks.

Kaye T. Bai · 03-11-09, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubenandthejets

A lot of the hi-tech wizardry the U.S. relies on may go offline due to massive hacker/virus attacks.

That is a possibility, albeit a slim one.

MrYenko · 03-12-09, 12:16 PM

Bottom line; the Impeccable had ears on one of Chinas new boomers (Survey ship, my ass. Thats a SURTASS vessel, sure as hell,) and someone up the PLAN totem pole told a zealous underling to see if they couldn't be made to go away.

As for destruction of the Impeccable's towed array, again... I dont buy it. How much do you think the Russians, or hell, how much do you think the PLAN wants a towed array from a SURTASS? Enough to risk starting a war over?

International waters = international waters. If you think the chinese and the russians dont do the same thing in international waters surrounding Pearl Harbor, you're fooling yourself.

Seriously, though. This IS how wars start. China needs to calm the hell down.

Kaye T. Bai · 03-12-09, 01:43 PM

Well said, MrYenko.

It was kinda funny to see the Chinese "ships" that were trying to "intercept" the T-AGOS-23.

Poor craftsmanship is not even close.

JALU3 · 03-13-09, 07:19 AM

Well unfortunatly, I have looked up additional information, and the USNS Victorious was tailed by a PLAN Frigate, and buzzed by a PLAAF aircraft a couple days prior to the events that occured with teh USNS Impeccable. And there is some arguement whether those were civilian ships, or actual PLAN ships, depending on what news source you listen to. Either way, the next planned outing, the US has announced will be escorted by a DDG.
Now this is a game of brinkmanship, woes going to step down first, who is going to relinquish the sea-lanes?

Max2147 · 03-13-09, 09:27 AM

You have to wonder where the orders came from to harass the ship. I think it was JFK who made the comment "There's always some son of a b*tch who doesn't get the memo" after a U2 was shot down over Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was right - the Soviet commander on the ground was acting without authorization.

This incident with China sounds like a similar case. Some local commander got a bit too big for his boots, and the higher ups in the PLAN have turned a blind eye to it until now.

bottomcrawler · 03-13-09, 05:26 PM

An air defence ship could have a tethered aerostat with a radar device. It could be used both as a single radar unit, or bistatically with both a mast-mounted radar on the mothership, or identical units on other ships (say in a carrier group).

That would both increase detection range and improve resolution, so that incoming skimmers could be detected earlier and hopefully neutralised earlier as well.

If the aerostat is hit, the radar unit would deploy a parachute and slowly descend, to be recovered by the mothership. A new aerostat would be connected and inflated as soon as possible. A large ship could carry several as backups.

03-10-09, 05:02 PM	#19
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,737 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	If a Russian or Chinese special sonar ship would start to track the area close to a major Us submarine base, the US Navy hardly would give it a warm welcome. So if you behave like this in their playground, don't expect to be given special status. I also want to remind everybody that a year ago, when the Iranian rubber boats provoked an american flotilla in the Strait of hormuz and reports were released that they radioed they would desztroy the american ships, later the Navy had to step back and take back these reports as well - things seem to have happend a bit different than how the Navy described them. The time between wars - sees the war of propaganda. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 03-11-09 at 06:28 AM.

03-11-09, 01:47 AM	#22
Hunter Commander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St.Petersburg, Russia Posts: 474 Downloads: 166 Uploads: 0	[qoute]That video is from "The Sum Of All Fears," which is a 2002 American movie. The scene in that movie was a great one. [/quote]Thanks. I am really inpressed with quality of this scene and going to find this movie for my collection if it is still availible. Though Tom Clansy's fiction about Russians sometimes go wild and I more prefere Harrison Ford as Jack Rayan.[qoute]It shows Russian bombers attacking the USS John C. Stennis with super-sonic anti-ship missiles. They fire enough missiles to overwhelm and bypass the ship's defenses. [/qoute]Overkill was the most favorite tacktic as well as strategy during the Cold war. 50-60 cruise misseles with conventional or nuclear warheads flying below effective radar sight could overhelm every possible air defense.[qoute]The only way to defeat the flooding of the battlespace with active weapons is to make the enemy running out of ammunition. [/qoute]Or you can make your weapones less visible in enemy radars which makes enemy airdefense uneffective as you can't hit what you can't detect. And heres the possible reason for all that mess. Satellite images have captured the two Type 094 SSBNs docked at the Bohai Shipyard, and one of the submarines was also spotted inside the PLA Navy’s only known nuclear submarine base at Xiaopingdao, Liaoning Province. In April 2008, Federation of American Scientists (FAS) website revealed that a Type 094 SSBN has been deployed to a newly-built nuclear submarine base near Sanyang City on the southern Hainan Island [1].http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/type094jin.asp Last edited by Hunter; 03-11-09 at 03:12 AM.

03-11-09, 07:01 AM	#24
rubenandthejets 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 279 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	A lot of the hitech wizardry the US relies on might well be offline due to massive hacker / virus attacks. __________________ HMAS Sydney III "Thorough and Ready"

03-12-09, 12:16 PM	#26
MrYenko Watch Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 30 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	Bottom line; the Impeccable had ears on one of Chinas new boomers (Survey ship, my ass. Thats a SURTASS vessel, sure as hell,) and someone up the PLAN totem pole told a zealous underling to see if they couldn't be made to go away. As for destruction of the Impeccable's towed array, again... I dont buy it. How much do you think the Russians, or hell, how much do you think the PLAN wants a towed array from a SURTASS? Enough to risk starting a war over? International waters = international waters. If you think the chinese and the russians dont do the same thing in international waters surrounding Pearl Harbor, you're fooling yourself. Seriously, though. This IS how wars start. China needs to calm the hell down. __________________ Audentes fortuna juvat

03-12-09, 01:43 PM	#27
Kaye T. Bai Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Western Hemisphere, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster Posts: 584 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Well said, MrYenko. It was kinda funny to see the Chinese "ships" that were trying to "intercept" the T-AGOS-23. Poor craftsmanship is not even close. Last edited by Kaye T. Bai; 03-15-09 at 09:41 AM.

03-10-09, 03:22 PM	#16
Hunter Commander Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: St.Petersburg, Russia Posts: 474 Downloads: 166 Uploads: 0	The WW3 tactics would show combined massive missile attacks of Soviet Surface vessels, Subamarines and Air forces against US CV groups like in this movie. Unfortunately, I don't know the title. Looks very natural but definately filmed not in Russia

03-10-09, 10:20 PM	#21
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The US Navy probably cannot be defeated through conventional tactics. But the Millennium Challenge exercise in 2002 showed that the Navy is still vulnerable to unconventional attacks. That wargame simulated an American attack on Iran. The US Navy tried to sail through the Straits of Hormuz and was annihilated by a combination of Iranian missiles and suicide speedboats. An aircraft carrier and two helicopter carriers were sunk, plus an assortment of escort ships. US casualties would have been around 20,000. The Navy basically had to start the wargame over again, which led to the 'red force' commander resigning in disgust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 http://www.rense.com/general64/fore.htm

03-11-09, 03:11 AM	#23
Kaye T. Bai Samurai Navy Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Western Hemisphere, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster Posts: 584 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Never heard about it Max2147, but it seemed very interesting after reading up on it. 20,000. Wow.

03-13-09, 07:19 AM	#28
JALU3 Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2007 Location: 11SMS 98896 10565 Posts: 756 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well unfortunatly, I have looked up additional information, and the USNS Victorious was tailed by a PLAN Frigate, and buzzed by a PLAAF aircraft a couple days prior to the events that occured with teh USNS Impeccable. And there is some arguement whether those were civilian ships, or actual PLAN ships, depending on what news source you listen to. Either way, the next planned outing, the US has announced will be escorted by a DDG. Now this is a game of brinkmanship, woes going to step down first, who is going to relinquish the sea-lanes? __________________ "The Federation needs men like you, doctor. Men of conscience. Men of principle. Men who can sleep at night... You're also the reason Section Thirty-one exists -- someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong." -Sloan, Section Thirty-One Last edited by JALU3; 03-13-09 at 07:58 PM.

03-13-09, 09:27 AM	#29
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You have to wonder where the orders came from to harass the ship. I think it was JFK who made the comment "There's always some son of a b*tch who doesn't get the memo" after a U2 was shot down over Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He was right - the Soviet commander on the ground was acting without authorization. This incident with China sounds like a similar case. Some local commander got a bit too big for his boots, and the higher ups in the PLAN have turned a blind eye to it until now.

03-13-09, 05:26 PM	#30
bottomcrawler Mate Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 53 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	An air defence ship could have a tethered aerostat with a radar device. It could be used both as a single radar unit, or bistatically with both a mast-mounted radar on the mothership, or identical units on other ships (say in a carrier group). That would both increase detection range and improve resolution, so that incoming skimmers could be detected earlier and hopefully neutralised earlier as well. If the aerostat is hit, the radar unit would deploy a parachute and slowly descend, to be recovered by the mothership. A new aerostat would be connected and inflated as soon as possible. A large ship could carry several as backups.