What's Killing the Video-Game Business?

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

The problem with DF (aside that it is massively overcomplicated) is that it has zero graphics. This is also why such a game can exist. As such you can't compare it with a commercial game at all as if this game did have graphics (say full 3d graphics even a generation or 2 old) he would need 10+ people working on it to have any chance of getting it out in the next 3 years. Also not everyone likes sandbox games, (personally i like both) but like well crafted linear story lines (or both).

Also I don't consider DF to be at all immersive (addictive sure). You don't feel like your there, its kind of hard to be immersed by smiley faces moving around on a ASCII icon field.

The big point though is if you want any kind of modern day graphics, the development costs and man hours increase exponential from the simple games like DF (and DF is a simple game, just pure coding, no sound effects, modeling, skinning, etc.

http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/df.htm :P

Honestly though the ASCII kinda grows on you, one minute your looking at the game in confusion wondering "WHAT THE BLOODY HELL"

Then something just snaps and then every single thing starts to make since and you end up getting immersed, instead of seing a "EG" you start seeing an elephant beating the living hell out of a goblin.

[NeonSamurai]

Also we tend to color our memories as time passes. Happy memories become even happier over time, as sad or unhappy memories become even more so. So a lot of games that we remember as being so utterly awesome 5 or 10 years ago, in fact were not quite so awesome as we remember them being. Those memories also color our feelings of a game when we go back and play them.

[Captain Vlad]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Also we tend to color our memories as time passes. Happy memories become even happier over time, as sad or unhappy memories become even more so. So a lot of games that we remember as being so utterly awesome 5 or 10 years ago, in fact were not quite so awesome as we remember them being. Those memories also color our feelings of a game when we go back and play them.

Indeed we do, and sometimes some of that sentimentality fades when we sample an old favorite again, and we appreciate what games made in the modern era are capable of. Silent Service is a good example. How many of us have would have really gone back to it in favor of Aces of the Deep or Silent Hunter?

On the other hand...some games really do stand up to their more advanced brethren. Even years since it's first release, I'm hard pressed to think of any ways to make X-COM better, and nothing quite like Starflight has been released since.

[stabiz]

I think indie games will grow stronger. Mount & Blade is a good example. (never tried it myself, but it seems very popular)

[NeonSamurai]

Oh I agree, some games hold up incredibly well. To me the best test is that the only thing, if you had a choice to change, would be to update the graphics (and maybe sound).

I can think of many games where that would pretty much be the only thing i would want done to them. An from a nostalgia perspective I may be quite happy with the graphics and sound as is.

Independent and small developers/publishers will probably grow in size and eventually replace the existing giants, that is often the way it works, and most of the older companies started that way.

Mount and Blade may not be the best example though. It has many fine qualities (and its the best simulation of medieval combat in a game to date), however, I could write a massive post on all its flaws with out saying a word about the graphics or sound.

[stabiz]

I dont mind if the indie scene grows rapidly, that would mean games with (hopefully) less compromise to suit "all" players, and who cares if it doesnt have the latest shader. I dont say graphics are of no importance, visual simulation is after all a big part of simulating something, but I am content with the graphics in ... say ... Theatre of War.

Oh, and indie developers will stay on the pc I reckon (dont own a console, so dont know how online market places work, but dont really see f.i. Microsoft agreeing to competion unless they have to) and that rids us of the God awful ports.

But hey, maybe the sim genre comes back from the "dead". Eastern Europe seems to employ half the population in simulator projects.

[em2nought]

What's Killing the Video-Game Business? Self-inflicted wounds. DRM, auto-updaters, single player games that you need an internet connection to play, Vista. Computers have become more important for other tasks, and now games come with such crap attached that you don't want to f up your PC just to play a game that you have to jump through hoops to play anyway.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by em2nought

What's Killing the Video-Game Business? Self-inflicted wounds. DRM, auto-updaters, single player games that you need an internet connection to play, Vista. Computers have become more important for other tasks, and now games come with such crap attached that you don't want to f up your PC just to play a game that you have to jump through hoops to play anyway.

Is it just me or is DRM some sort of hellish beast that keeps you up at night? You have it here and over at the Jutland forums. I have not had any protection device screw up any of my computers. Not even SF. So, what gives? Has a DRM or SF ruined your computer?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Is it just me or is DRM some sort of hellish beast that keeps you up at night? You have it here and over at the Jutland forums. I have not had any protection device screw up any of my computers. Not even SF. So, what gives? Has a DRM or SF ruined your computer?

To be honest I am wondering the same thing about this AVG
I have not had any problems with it, ever.

[Captain Vlad]

I have had a DRM problem, with Silent Hunter III. The StarForce program did...something...to my CD/DVD drive making it impossible for me to use it for watching videos and rendering installations from CDs and creating audio CDs a very slow process. Uninstalling StarForce restored full capability...but I had to contact the company to get an uninstall program, which should not have been necessary.

I've also had issues with Mass Effect and other 'be online to play' single-player games. I live in an area with no DSL or cable internet service. Wild Blue was a godsend to me in many ways as dial-up in my area run at 14.4 K on a good day due to some very olllld phone lines in my neighborhood, but as with any satellite-reliant equipment, I can have sunspot issues or be unable to connect when the weather is windy or storming.

Which means that I couldn't play some newer games when it was raining. That's...unacceptable to me.

[GlobalExplorer]

I think the problem is that PR and advertising cost have gone out of control. Cost explosion, reminds a lot of our football leagues here in Europe. If contracting a good player costs between 10 and 100 million euro, you're of course screwed if your team is not playing stellar.

As for the gaming giants, they apparently spend more money on advertising than on making games now, maybe that is not so healthy afterall.

Concerning DRM: it might get on your nerves, but em2nought is right. You get customers by offering the best possible product, not by making their lives miserable.

[NeonSamurai]

One comment I could point at copy protection is the associated costs, for often very little reward. Most games today hit the internet often the same day the game was released, sometimes a few days early, sometimes a few days late. About the only games that escape that fate are ones with brand new copy protection schemes (and even then it usualy doesn't take em very long), or niche games which the main piracy scene doesn't give a damn about.


I have to admit, I don't much like the phone home & limited installs DRM as all its done so far is proved to be a pain in the butt for honest users, while software pirates don't have any of those issues. The other issue I have is long term ability to play when the publisher dumps support. Games I buy I tend to keep and play 5, 10, 15 even 20 years down the road, and I have serious doubts about companies like EA and others releasing patches for DRM protected games to remove the DRM.

[Pioneer]

As best I know, there are only two game developers here on the forum. (My apologies if that is not true.) The two I know of have developed, marketed, made some $$$, and earned their living from making games. At the back end of their development, I came on board and have my hand in two titles. Unfortunately, one may never see the light of day. That's because of what I call "follow through".

The ability to "follow through" is offset by instant gratification of "money". Developers expect their finance people to "follow through" with the cash, developers aren't interested in "the cash has dried up", their interested in "show me the money". They put in a days work, expect a days pay. Sometimes the money starts to dry up before the project is finished. The developer's don't know that, only the finance people do, but quite often, it's the developers left holding the debts.

Evidence- Enigma: Sink the Hood. "Yo, finance man, where's the $$$?"

Now I understand when the money dries up, company's can close and go their own way, tell that to the developer when his house gets foreclosed because some finance guy folded. Most times though, the developer will continue to work on the project because he (the developer) has follow through, to the fans.

And sometimes those same fans are also lacking on follow through. "Hey where's the project?" "When is it going to be finished?" "Why is it taking so long?" Which eventually degrades to slurs, a little plagiarism, and the almighty "If it was me, I'd do it this way."

Yeah that's great, I'll wait to see your follow through but in the meantime, shut the ***** up. It will be done when it's done.

Your leisure time game is our livelihood, how we earn our living. The developers get it from both ends with lack of follow through, the wants from the public unable to be satisfied with instant gratification, against the $$ from above. Which leaves a third group, the only group, that has follow through.

The Diehards - those that never loose the faith who offer and help in between their real life, the moders who work tirelessly to patch, modify, improve and add in between their real life, and the Neal's of the world supporting the cause on their own $$, in between their real life.

Which comes back to "follow through". I'd gladly trade off the $81M expenditure to produce APB for one Neal, knowing how much "follow through" I'd get.

What's killing the video game business - and it is a business. It's the "follow through". Demand all and offer nothing.

(Q: How much info/help/mods/patchs have you taken from the subsim forums against how often have you donated?)

Neal knows where his group is, he can count it by $$ or by "follow through" not number of posts. A finished product is a many splendid thing, if you have follow through with $$, and the public gets their input. Take one away, and you may as well give up.

9 out of 10 games never make it to the finish, lack of "follow through" from the developers. Do I blame them? Hell no, why should I expect them to be the only ones with "follow through".

Sidebar: I did invite a developer/good friend of mine to comment on this thread, and it wasn't until I started penning my answer that I realize why. Unless you've had to earn your living by putting it together, there's no real reason for anyone to "follow through".

[Zachstar]

Cost

All the side stuff is just that. Side

In the 90s costs were skyrocketing but you did have the engines you could use to get some models and sounds and effects in and actually have a decent game.

These days tho you have simply too much. (Too much demand for detail, Too much demand for future upgrades) etc...

The result is the side stuff. Look at Spore.. GREAT idea but when money was looking a little "off" They seemed to screw it up nine ways to sunday.

This process simply can't keep going. Nvidia is about to double the performance on a new series of cards and GDDR5 is almost standard in the upper end. That means people will want more yet again.

What needs to happen in my view is that either there needs to be serious cooperation between the big companies or we need to accept serious mergers.

If they can cooperate they can standardize engines to reduce that much cost. Then they can start developing automated tools to produce details (Feed computer bunch of photos or artwork of object you want modeled and it does so without a person tweaking it for hours) It wont return costs to 90s levels but such would allow them to have more projects.

[Otto_Weddigen]

I wouldn't want to buy games at this time,save all the money you can,stock up on food and any neccessities you need