herman goering

[A Very Super Market]

Not really. Speer basically confessed, Streicher never bothered to even try and defend himself, Seyss-Inquart was perfectly accepting of the verdict, as was Frank.

[Torplexed]

Poor Hermann. I've always enjoyed that photo where he daubs the sweat while being questioned by reporters shortly after his capture in May 1945. "So, Herr Goering tell us about your claim that if a single bomb falls on Berlin you can call me Meyer?"

[Freiwillige]

"Also, it seems to me you believe that it would have been satisfying for Germany to win."

I would say that you are being rather presumptuous.

"And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surrender was forced to scuttle itself in Kiel the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars."

I said Imagine, Not "hey that would be great if"

I was just pointing out my opinion of how Germany could have won and the possible consequences of that victory, and for that I shall not apologize.

[Freiwillige]

After Goering's capture the interrogators and guards found Goering highly intelligent and composed with an Aristocratic nature. Very well liked. Goering faced his conviction but requested that he be shot and not hung. Being shot is an Honorable way to be executed while being hung is shamefully. When his request was denied he took poison over the hangman's noose. It is rumored that one of the American guards he befriended retrieved his German issued cyanide capsule from his belongings.

[bookworm_020]

Thats because they were used in a raider role and not in fleet actions
IF the KM heavies plus carrier had sailed together it would have made for some interesting encounters
Convoys would have had to stop or would have been wiped out

If they stayed out of range of most shore bound aircraft, it would have given them the advantage of being able to shoot down any patrol aircraft and scout for targets, as well as give warning of any approaching enemy task forces. It could have taken merchant raiding to another level.

After Goering's capture the interrogators and guards found Goering highly intelligent and composed with an Aristocratic nature. Very well liked. Goering faced his conviction but requested that he be shot and not hung. Being shot is an Honorable way to be executed while being hung is shamefully. When his request was denied he took poison over the hangman's noose. It is rumored that one of the American guards he befriended retrieved his German issued cyanide capsule from his belongings.

He was seperated from other inmates, as he was considered to be the driving force in keeping the group bound together and from admitting any guilt.

[Lt. Sven Thomsen]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

If they stayed out of range of most shore bound aircraft, it would have given them the advantage of being able to shoot down any patrol aircraft and scout for targets, as well as give warning of any approaching enemy task forces. It could have taken merchant raiding to another level.

Oh, come on. It's a fact that there isn't anything better for merchant raiding than a sub, quiet and invisible. That fat hull would of been spotted the moment those Stukas took off to inspect the convoy. (Stukas, wow, that flying junkyard was obsolete before first really big aerial battle of the war. Perfect for Spain, awful for sea. It's amazing they even thought of putting them onto carriers.)

Not to even mention how large surface force does one AC pull with him to protect him from subs, airplanes, MTB's etc. etc., which again kinda goes against the concept of merchant raiding. You either have a sitting duck or a large task force that can be seen on every Brit radar on the Atlantic.

[Freiwillige]

I have to disagree with your assesment of the Stuka. It performed raids on convoys in the channel quite effectivly and would probably be on par in performance with the Japanese Val or the American dauntless.

The German evaluation of the Stuka for its suitability to be a carrier craft gave it glowing recomendations. Its undercarage was strong, It carried a suitable bomb load and had the required range. Its only real short coming would be the lack of folding wings.

Now the 109T that would have been scary.

Secondly aircraft are a far larger threat to a convoy than a submarine ever could be in WWII. Torpedo planes would have a hayday with merchants and it aint like they could run away even if they did see them coming!


Not to say that it should replace the U-boat arm, Just saying that if they could effectivly get a carrier around England and out to see, A daunting task in its own right that it would have and could have been an effective convoy destroyer that im sure would have every available ship and Sub in the Royal navy looking for her to sink cause she would have been a greater threat than the Bizmark!

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

I always thought Germany could have used a long range torpedo bomber similar to the Japanese 'Betty' naval bomber to good effect. Instead of U-Boats you could have had packs of planes delivering havoc on the sea lanes well out to sea beyond effective land-based fighter range. Escort carriers would have been the eventual solution for Britain but they were far more expensive and costly to build than corvettes and frigates.

But without the U-boats who is detecting those convoys in the middle of the atlantic and staying in touch with them without beeing detected until a formation of bombers is directed towards it? I don't think a bomber can do that.

BTW the FW 200 Condor was used for things like that but not in large numbers.

[Kapt Z]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

I was always under the opinion that Germany's only naval hope was to build alot more U-boats early on. Doenitz had wanted and said he needed 300 to defeat England. When war with the west started he had a little over 50, With only 27 being capable of fighting in the Atlantic, Type VII's. The rest were the smaller type II's and training boats.

Now imagine if the Kreigsmarine had focused on building the U-boat fleet. England would have starved into submission and sued for peace. Then and only then could the Kreigsmarine focus on building the larger battlewagons needed to "Protect" Europe.

And Imagine if the entire Royal Navy after its surender was forced to scuttle itself in Keil the way they did to both German Navy's after both world wars.

I agree, Doenitz had a brief window there in 1939-41 where the u-boats could have really shut the door on Britain if there had been enough of them. After the US came into the war it was only a matter of time before they were driven from the seas.

Even with Britain occupied by the Germans I doubt the RN would have surrendered. They would have sailed for Canada and continued to fight.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by rubenandthejets

Wow, lots of anti Goering stuff here!

Yeah, OK, he was pretty useless, but back before his testicles were shot off he was a great WWI ace with machine gun smoke smeared on his face and a Blue Max around his neck. His fatty fatness really was a glandular problem.

Let's not forget he was the only one at Nuremberg who stood up and took responsibilty for his actions-"Yes, I ordered those POWs shot" etc and then gave everyone the finger by killing himself.

He pretty much knew the war was lost once the Russian front started up and from then on pretty much kept his head down and enjoyed his loot.

No, I'm not a Nazi, just a Devil's Advocate.

I dont care what he did in WWI or after the war, he had very little knowledge on how to deal with the Luftwaffe. Lot of his decisions were based on his experiences in WWI, WWII was very different war.

Also, he cared little of what happened to his pilots, one occasion I can remember was that Goering came to visit some airfield with reporters. Reports came in that there was allied raid forming, despite the clouds and fog that covered the whole german airfield, Goering ordered the squadron there to take off, just show the reporters would have something to write. The squadron commander refused, because it would've been too dangerous to take off in that weather. What did Goering do? Put the guy against the wall. Thanks to Gunther Lutzow, the man was spared as he called directly to Goering and convinced him to spare the guy.

And of course, then there's the billion cases where he called all the LW a bunch of cowards, hence the guncameras were installed so ppl on the ground could watch the later on and see if the pilot attacked the enemy in air. No matter if it was one LW plane against 2000 allied planes, he had to attack.

A real tosser of his time.

[Freiwillige]

Originally Posted by Kapt Z

I agree, Doenitz had a brief window there in 1939-41 where the u-boats could have really shut the door on Britain if there had been enough of them. After the US came into the war it was only a matter of time before they were driven from the seas.

Even with Britain occupied by the Germans I doubt the RN would have surrendered. They would have sailed for Canada and continued to fight.

The Royal Navy is not its own government. Like France I believe that most would do as the Parliament or his Majesty ordered. Especially if it was a peaceful end without occupation. Germany's war was never with England, England saw to it quite differently though!

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

The Royal Navy is not its own government. Like France I believe that most would do as the Parliament or his Majesty ordered. Especially if it was a peaceful end without occupation. Germany's war was never with England, England saw to it quite differently though!

I have to agree that the RN would have sailed for somewhere
Anywhere rather than surrender
IF the UK had been invaded there were still plenty of outposts left to head for

[A Very Super Market]

I have nothing to say about where the RN would go. Instead, I will talk about Stukas!

Where to start... the Stuka did well in Poland, Norway, Denmark, France, the Soviets Union, and the early part of North Africa. In all these cases, apart from Norway, the air forces of those countries was either obliterated beforehand, weak, or non-existant. Norway was comparitively hard-fought by the Allies and luftwaffe.

When blitz started, Stukas were put to use over England. The RAF ended up relishing to see the "Doras", because they were slow, unwieldy, and completely lacking in defense. Stukas were best at supplementing land operations, where they could perform hit-and-run strikes and run away before anyone could do anything.

What does this have to do with the Graf Zeppelin? If Stukas were used by her, she would also have to carry less fighters because they took up a lot of room. Less fighters would mean that the RN could easily achieve air superiority, then shoot down the Stukas, assuming the AA guns didn't take care of them already. In a sense, for Germany to have a carrier in the first place would have been worse than having no carrier. The inevitable loss of her would have meant that all those resources would be completely wasted.

[U-84]

Early war though till probably until (if lucky) till 41, a carrier could have done a great deal of damage, providing they had planes with good range, and armament, so that the carrier could stay well away from british planes, but close enough to convoys.

[A Very Super Market]

Perhaps, but they would have to get out of Kiel with it, either going through the channel (suicide for a freaking carrier) or past Scapa (slightly less suicidal)