What would have happened if Germany didn't declare on US after Pearl Harbor?

[Hanomag]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I voted 'Other', not because I have another idea, but because I don't have any idea at all.

LOL me 2... :rotfl:

[BasilY]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Not very much apparently

The US would have declared war on Germany.

Roosevelt knew that a European continent ruled by Germany would eventually become a threat to the US in trade terms amongst others.

Add to that the close relationship between the US and the UK both in historical and in inhabitants terms.....I honestly don't think Roosevelt had much choice.

Could you imagine the might of Germany should she gain control of the Royal Navy and possessions/resources of the British Empire.

Why did some many here think Britain will fall and germany victorious if America didn't declare war on Germany?

That's highly unlikely because:
1. Germany had already given up trying to conquer England by Sea born Invasion by 1941;
2. American Arms and supplies can sustain England without American at war with Germany De Jure
3. If America concentrate her attention on Japan, New Zealand, Australia, and British India can shift their forces to the fight in Europe/North Africa where they are already heavily engaged. (Interesting fact: Aquitania, the ship that no real uboat ever put under the cross hair, was transporting Australian troops back home to face the Japanese threat.) So instead of Americans landing on Omaha, it will be the Kiwis and Ausis, while American Infantryman will be fighting in Papua New Guenia. I doubt the result will be much different.

Oh yeah, there are also about 10,000,000 Russians who really like to have a luger for a souvenior.

I am surprise that no one pick number 6. If America concentrate on Japan First, and ended war in the Pacific, said, a year earlier (August 44), The global situation will be vastly different today:

1. American troops would be in all of Korea, at least none from russia, hence a divided korean and korean war becomes unlikely,
2. American troops would be in Manchuria, Taiwan, maybe coastal China, making a Communist victory in the Chinese civil war less likely. (Manchuria later become a strong base for the communist during the civil war)
3. American troops and fleet in Japan, Korea, Manchuria will be facing the Russians, who will be suspicious of American motive. Stalin, being the paranoid SOB he is, will probably move troops to the east just in case America has a different agenda (Stalin were known for his own double-crossing skills)
4. By August, 44, Victory fever in Berlin should have subsided by now. Cooler heads, like Runstadt, Rommel, could have prevail.

So, at this point, an american peace plan - that restore prewar borders, Demilitarized Germany, require the change of Government in Germany, military tribunals (everything on the Atlantic Charter agreed to before dec, 1941) - with the inplicit threat of war against any side (A threat Stalin can't ignore with American troop staring down at Siberia) who refused to accept it, will be quite persuasive.

Some will say the Nazi's will still fight to the bitter end, that's what people said about japan as well..., And look what happen in Germany also, the Ruhr pocket surrender with 300,000 troops, and the Flensburg government under Doenitz didn't put up much a fight either.

[BasilY]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

Even if Germany hadn't declared war on America, there would have been a big increase in the supply of material to England, and with that, the risk of more AMerican ships being sunk by German U-boats.

An intresting idea from BasilY, but I don't think the American government would have taken the bait.

What was FDR going to say when asking the Congress to declare war? "Even though Germany is fighting our common enemy the Japanese, we are going to declare war on Germany anyway, and keep helping England and Russia in their war against Germany because she invaded her neighbors and murder her own people..."

Cue Stalin, thinking about Finland, poland, the Baltic States, the purges, and the Gulags.

BTW, in December 1941, There was a pact between Japan and USSR as well. (After Zhukov administered quite a beating on them in a short border war.) What ever reason FDR had to declare war on Germany, can be used to declare war on USSR as well.

[predavolk]

BasilY, the problem with #6 is that the war between Germany and the USSR was practically genocidal. The Germans wanted to extinguish the sub-human vermin while the Soviets responded with a bloodthirst and ruthlessness to match. Both were led by Cult figures who could only be removed by a thorough, bloody coup. After such a coup, Germany would certainly have sued for peace. The USSR on the other hand, especially after 1943/Kursk, had nothing to fear about war and lots to gain from it. They had no incentive, Stalin or not, to stop pushing the Germans out of their country by force and then claiming the extra territory as their victory prize.

Again, the real struggle in WW2 was Germany vs Russia. In terms of number of troops, number of casualties, brutality, duration, land mass, and finally sheer importance. It was what Hitler ultimately wanted (and possibly Stalin too, just at a later time) and it was what ultimately decided WW2. The Pacific was an important side-show, but Japan never had a hope if the rest of the world didn't like its empire (other than Germany, no one did). Its island logistical base was just too weak. And as I've mentioned, other than a possible German rapid victory in 1941 that captured much of the Soviet manufacturing, it was endgame the moment they set foot in Russia. Too much land to conquer (by far), too inflexible a policy (vs. accepting the help of 1,000,000 anti-Stalin Russian soldiers), too many Russians vs. Germans, too much Russian vs. German production, and the T-34. It was a fait acomplit.

[Erich dem Roten]

I've always held the belief that any dreams Hitler had of occupying the UK were dashed in the 'Spitfire Summer' of 1940. The allies had a tenuous air superiority from then on that only grew until it was completely dominant (chalk it up to bravery, ability, and poor decision making by the German high command). I don't for a second think that the UK could ever be taken.

My opinion of Germany's best case scenario would be an occupation of the continent, from western France to their own eastern borders, with parts of Poland as a weakly held buffer. Eventually partisan efforts and Russian/allied (even without the US) pressure would lead to collapse, if it hadn't internally already (remember, Hitler wasn't universally popular even in Nazi Germany).

All that said, I don't think the United States really had a choice in the matter. The UK was an ally, and though it took Pearl Harbor to actually get an official declaration, Roosevelt was already doing what he could to help the British cause, mainly in the form of war materials.

[Task Force]

I forgot about russia. I should have rememberd them after the great time ive been haveing with there planes in IL2. It is quite likely that no matter if america would have or not have gotten in the war, Germany was gona lose. I myself think they got alittle to overconfidentin in there defences(1940-1943), The loss of uboats during 43-44 was a big notice to them. I think thats the way to say it.