Effectivness of decoys

[Hawk66]

Don't know if this was discussed before, but haven't found a corresponding thread.

I'm currently trying to improve the behaviour of AI-Subs and asking myself if it's realistic, that torpedos always gets distracted by decoys.

Is that 'real life' behaviour or should there be a modifier like that a torpedo gets only distracted with a probability of 50% ?

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

I'm currently trying to improve the behaviour of AI-Subs and asking myself if it's realistic, that torpedos always gets distracted by decoys.

Is that 'real life' behaviour or should there be a modifier like that a torpedo gets only distracted with a probability of 50% ?

It's not realistic for a variety of reasons. It would be better if there was a simple probability of the countermeasure being effective. You have to be careful when you do this, though, because with the LWAMI and torpedoes that can potentially re-attack their targets, the statistics of this might get kinda funny. Then you'll find yourself asking what does that probability of 0.5 really mean and is it too high or low? I can see people here geeking about that for years to come.

Also... something to consider, is that difference countermeasures might have different effectiveness values against different torpedoes. Countermeasure A, might work really well against the old Torpedo Mk.1 but be not-so-good against snazzy new Torpedo Mk.5 Spiral 15.

[Hawk66]

Thanks for the input SeaQueen. I've added a 50% probability, that the torpedo ignores CM...I 'looks' more realistic now...


BTW: Since AI subs cannot 'wireguide' their torpedoes do you think it would be a workaround to increase the probability, that the torpedo ignores the CM (let's say 75%), if started from a AI sub?

I don't know the situational awareness capability of the weapon officer/team in a real sub.
Do they guide the torpedo away from the decoys (if they are identified by sonar or even via the feedback-signal of the torpedo's sonar)?

[Dr.Sid]

I wonder how much torpedoes are fired against countermeasures for training.
The bigger chance for wireguided torpedoes is good idea. Isn't it part of LWAMI already ?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I wonder how much torpedoes are fired against countermeasures for training.
The bigger chance for wireguided torpedoes is good idea. Isn't it part of LWAMI already ?

LWAMI 4 had "variable decoy logic" but this was never put into the LWAMI 3 series for torpedoes. I think the logic looks a lot like what was done for "advanced" seaskimming missiles on the doctrine level.

[Hawk66]

I did a couple of changes regarding the sub/torpedo doctrines (based on current LWAMI):

• Torpedos:
  • probability that an AI sub fired torpedo uses CircleSearchPattern for a limited time after enabling or if it's lost its target / spoofed by a decoy. This is surely not a realistic behavior but it compensates a little the missing wire guidaince and against AI subs the kill rate seems to be improved
  • probability that a decoy is ignored
• AI subs
  • more variable/randomized attack logic with the possibility to fire a third weapon
  • clears the datum after the first weapon is fired (but might continue engagement)
  • in regulary, but randomized intervalls the sub 'listens' ("stealth mode") and also might do the 'Madman Ivan' manoever (uh, is this the right term for it? ) if no other platform is currently detected
  • if the sub manages to escape it might bypass the area
  • ToDo: possibility of active sonar search (limited time) if a torpedo is detected but not the launcher platform
  • ToDo: Snapshot on incoming torpedo. Might work with a special Attack doctrine command but if it works there would be the need of several doctrine files

When I'm finished and there's some interest I can upload the files.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

LWAMI 4 had "variable decoy logic" but this was never put into the LWAMI 3 series for torpedoes. I think the logic looks a lot like what was done for "advanced" seaskimming missiles on the doctrine level.

Pretty late, my question but I've left DW for almost a year due to other stuff:

What happened with LWAMI 4? I guess '4' stands for the 1.04 patch...

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Don't know if this was discussed before, but haven't found a corresponding thread.

I'm currently trying to improve the behaviour of AI-Subs and asking myself if it's realistic, that torpedos always gets distracted by decoys.

Is that 'real life' behaviour or should there be a modifier like that a torpedo gets only distracted with a probability of 50% ?

Nobody will tell you the real life behaviour.

I abandoned DW long time ago for different reasons. Also, I played 95% multiplayer games so not much experience vs AI either.

Anyway, I had a good experience in SC.

For me personally the strive for realism can easily become a killer of the fun factor witch (for me) is much more important. I am always a little sceptic when i read that world (realism)... because you'd need the real data and the people that have that information can't share it.

But I want to add my 2 cents anyway:

In SC, the use of the decoys was a matter of
1. good tactical awareness
2. high rectiveness (adrenaline was a great help)
2a. Always be ready to keep the enemy busy with a counterattack (most of the times)
3. correct decoy settings (depth) and type
4. perfect timing when to fire the decoy(s)
5. correct evasive maneuvering (speed / perfect timing in starting the maneuver / correct evasion angle)
6. maintain / regain tactical awareness ASAP

The decoy was there to allow you the bit of extra time, covering your boat, to have you do all that. (A decoy never detonated a torpedo).

In other words, nature of the decoy pretty simple, but requirement to the player were very high to achieve a successfull evasion (decoy as toy lol). You do a single "error" -> you die. "The art of evasion"

The AI can't do that AFAIK, and since we can't access the code and Sonalyst has gone AWOL, it will be some kind of compromise, but not to be found in real data, instead in personal taste...

[Dr.Sid]

AFAIK AI can drop CM, change course, and shoot back. It works in most cases.