How do you pronounce Ise?

[Doolittle81]

First, I hope I did not come across as hyper-critical of your response on Japanese pronuciation...I did not mean to offend.

Originally Posted by walrusbomb

... It's funny how speaking and explaining are entirely different. ..

I agree totally. That is why taking a course in Phonetics, either general or specific with regards to a particular language can be so very valuable. It let's you (or a teacher) describe Exactly in written form (phonetic) the specific sound desired. Sometimes one person's "ear" can't quite "Hear" the target sound as it is spoken, and then cannot repeat it back corrrectly....but reading a word written phonetically, there can be no doubt. I first learned the value of a phonetics course when I was studying Russian...unfortunately I didn't take the Phonetics course until I was in my third year of Russian. 'Phonetics' is also a very valuable tool for a professor who can ask a student on a test to Write down a word or entire paragraph in Phonetics, to prove that the student really understands the correct/desired pronunciation....no slurring/cheating allowed...

Originally Posted by walrusbomb

...And it's getting to the point I can hardly read hiragana..

I have not read any significant amount of Japanese in many, many years...kanji, katakana, hirigana or even romaji for that matter....but understanding/writing hiragana returns fairly quickly, certainly as compared to Kanji.

Originally Posted by walrusbomb

... I'm studying Mandarin currently and it's killing my throat. Most exhausting lanuage I've tried to learn. The tonal range is so unforgiving.

I didn't find Mandarin physically painful... Learning the Tones (and applying them correctly), of course, is extremely difficult...and is the key to the language as you note. Phonetically (and grammatically) Chinese is quite simple. For example, as you surely know, "ma" is always phonetically pronounced as "mah", basically the "ahh" sound when the Doctor says open your mother and say "aaah".....or "ma" as in the English, "Please, Ma"(for Mother). It's the tones that differentiate the words/sounds. In Mandarin Chinese, [ma] with tone 1 (high) means ‘mother’, with tone 2 (rising) ‘hemp’, with tone 3 (low fall–rise) ‘horse’, and with tone 4 (falling) ‘to scold’.

When I was studying Chinese, at the end of the first nine months or so, I focused totally on speaking correctly, foregoing any further efforts at learning the written language (Hanzi)...I was a non-traditional, auditing, student so I could work that out with the professor.

In any event, when I subsequently went to China, it proved much more valuable to be able to speak and be understood than to read. In that same regard, in Japanese I eventually learned about 500 Kanji, about the elementary school early fourth grade level reading ability for a Japanese stuudent...But, through non-use, a decade later I couldn't remember/recognize more than a handful. I knew that the same thing would happen with Chinese Hanzi.(in spite of Hanzi and Kanji being quite similar, as you know)

If you are studying Mandarin on your own, self-study, here is a link to a Great free on-line language learning Website which I recently discovered. Here's the link: http://www.livemocha.com/ I don't understand where their Profit comes from at this point...advertising possibly in the future? In any event, it uses a very good interactive learning interface and, most importantly, it connects native speakers to the student so that questions can be asked/answered and even speaking exercises critiqued...that's the key which I've never encountered in a non-(real life)-classroom environment. I've just begun to skim through the Mandarin language program to refresh myself...I heartily recommend that you check it out.

Apologies to others reading this thread...sorta hijacked, I guess. It's just somewhat rare to find anyone (English-speaking) conversant in both Chinese and Japanese.

[walrusbomb]

I dont think we hijacked it. Nobody disinterested in Foreign Language would ever click a thread with this as a Topic. And the Topic, itself, lead us perfectly to this point. And civilized too, which is all any of us ever want on messageboards.

I'm a programmer. I work with many Chinese coders, so it couldn't be further from "self-taught."

I was born and raised in Honolulu, which explains how I came to speak nihongo.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by walrusbomb

I dont think we hijacked it. Nobody disinterested in Foreign Language would ever click a thread with this as a Topic. And the Topic, itself, lead us perfectly to this point. And civilized too, which is all any of us ever want on messageboards.

I'm a programmer. I work with many Chinese coders, so it couldn't be further from "self-taught."

I was born and raised in Honolulu, which explains how I came to speak nihongo.

Considering that it started with a question on pronunciation, I don't think you guys hijacked it either. I speak and write no other language but English, but etymology and language in general has always fascinated me, and watching two people experienced in the language in question explain it to us laymen is particularly scintillating.

[walrusbomb]

ohayo sailor steve!

unintentionally argumentive to doolittle's points are the numerous accents within Japan. to a trained ear, people in Osaka sound nothing like people in Tokyo.

Okinawa- and Ainu- peoples have distinct accents as well. And then you have real deep-farmland accents/dialects/slang. And even some Paiwan peoples who where exiled by the Sino goverment so many years ago.

[Sailor Steve]

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that the Japanese are just like...everybody else?

Who'd a' thunk it?:rotfl:

[walrusbomb]

hell no, Sailor Steve. this would offend most Nihonjin I know.

[Doolittle81]

Originally Posted by walrusbomb

ohayo sailor steve!

unintentionally argumentive to doolittle's points are the numerous accents within Japan. to a trained ear, people in Osaka sound nothing like people in Tokyo.....

Okinawa- and Ainu- peoples have distinct accents as well......

Good point! I've lived both on Okinawa and in the vicinity of Tokyo, traveled to Osaka, Kyoto, etc.. At the time, my Japanese was not extensive enough to specifically detect/employ accents/dialects...just generic Nihongo which works fairly well across the country.

Now, when you have your basic Mandarin down pretty good, and you go to China.....you'll find insanely varied "accents/dialects". Most people in the West don't realize that "Chinese" really is a family of 'languages'...about ten distinct languages, only one of which is Putonghua/Mandarin...but about 70% of Chinese speak Mandarin, naturally (by region).

Chinese speaking any one of these ten major 'languages' basically don't understand Chinese speaking any of the other Nine...it would be like Russian to a Frenchman or Greek to a Norwegian, that distinctly different.

Mandarin is taught mandatorily in public schools since Mao took over in late 40's, so theoretically there should be a common language across the entire country.

It gets more interesting: within each of the ten or so major 'Chinese' languages, there are distinct capital "D" Dialects....in Mandarin, alone, there are a dozen or so distinct "Dialects". [The Beijing dialect is the basis for generic Mandarin as used in official business, government, etc and taught in schools]. Thus, while traveling in China, I used my generic Mandarin effectively, but had to learn new words and sharply different Mandarin pronunciations as I moved from region to region, and city to city.

For example, Shanghai has its own very distinct dialect (of Wu language, not Mandarin), often referred to, in English, as "Shanghainese" but also their pronunciation in Mandarin is distinct in many respects from Beijing. Out West, in the vicinity of Chongching, much of the natural Mandarin is different in pronunciation from that of Beijing, just as Hsian-Mandarin is different from Beijing Putonghua. Again, a Westerner can get by with generic Mandarin, but it requires repetition and precision, and adapting to new pronunciations as one goes from region to region.....and patience on the part of the Chinese listener. Of course, it is much better than not speaking any "Chinese" whatsoever as is/was the case with 99.9% of Western tourists whom I encountered (when I couldn't avoid doing so )

So, in the case of "Chinese", it really is beneficial to know how to read/write, as the written language is essentially the same across all of the languages (and dialects) of China....and people communicate by exchanging written notes when spoken language fails.

Okay, that's more than anyone is interested in reading/hearing...I tend to go off rambling when it comes to languages....

[walrusbomb]

emailed my cousin in Osaka and he mentioned it matters more where Ise is used in the statement than how it's pronouced. Even so much that the ship vs. the shrine(s) vs. the wider-area in the Mie prefecture would all yield sutble changes in sound.

he said that in Osaka, at least, the "I" would be dropped if talking about all Ise's save the Shrines and the City.

Kinda just a sharp "Seh" and the context would drive meaning: battleship seh!

But for Ise-jingū. "ee'seh" was respectfully correct.