Clayp, I feel your pain

[Midnight Hunter]

SWDW.. that is a great post, it is truely hard for new players or people having trouble to feel good about the game when they come here and hear stories of guys busting 50000 tonnes on thier first patrol with a "sugar" boat and never missing a shot and so on... I know for myself (and clayp you should do this too) as soon as I get a "ship spotted" message I save the game and pause, evaluate what I need to do, plan out my method of attack and then unpause and do it. I figure until I can get better and actually hit what I shoot at more than 1/3 of the time I need every advantage I can get

Now I am to the point where I plan on the fly and can get into good position and play like a hole in the water, now if I could only aim

[clayp]

SWDW thanks for the words....

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Midnight Hunter

SWDW.. that is a great post, it is truely hard for new players or people having trouble to feel good about the game when they come here and hear stories of guys busting 50000 tonnes on thier first patrol with a "sugar" boat and never missing a shot and so on... I know for myself (and clayp you should do this too) as soon as I get a "ship spotted" message I save the game and pause, evaluate what I need to do, plan out my method of attack and then unpause and do it. I figure until I can get better and actually hit what I shoot at more than 1/3 of the time I need every advantage I can get

Now I am to the point where I plan on the fly and can get into good position and play like a hole in the water, now if I could only aim

Not only that but don't be ashamed to use some of the "easy" settings. They're not cheating they're learning tools. A game that doesn't get played because it's too frustrating is no good to anybody.

And when you find yourself with a convoy in sight, do a special save! Call it "Convoy in Sight" or something. Then if the attack goes south you can load it up and go again.

Even (or especially!) if the attack does NOT go south, load it up and go again to see what else you can learn. Yes, you know already that it's on course 347 at 9 knots, but now you can just use what you already know and concentrate on things you didn't have time for last time.

Running through the exact same situation four or five times can teach you more than you can imagine. And saving the game lets you get skunked and know you can go for it again to see if you can change anything.

So: USE THE EASY SETTINGS (we won't tell)
SAVE THE GAME BEFORE AN ATTACK (do it over if....)

And have fun!!!!!!!!!!

[Midnight Hunter]

I had been doing just that, but I have been having issues that even with automatic targetting my weapons officer must be on crack because I still miss (event camera on) more than 50% of my shots with a 90 AOB and all stop from about 1000 yards (set up a mission to practice on) I don't know how or why so I just said the hell with it, if he misses 50% of the time then I may as well do it on manual and miss the same amount.. atleast I will feel good when I do hit a ship :rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

Midnight, the reason for that is that the estimate you get is dependent on .......hold it. I thought I had something to contribute here, but you're on auto. It's a mystery because I don't know anything about auto targeting!

I encourage you to miss 50% of your shots manual targeting, though. It's a LOT more fun! Be sure to check out WernerSobe's instructional videos and I have a seminar on the Dick O'Kane targeting technique on page 4 of his thread that will really help you if you get into the SH4UBM add-on! Manual targeting isn't as hard as it first appears. Go for it.

[Midnight Hunter]

I have seen the videos, and to be honest, I "tried" to read your thread and with all the story telling in it I honestly couldn't follow what you were trying to instruct lol... I am more of a "by the book" when trying to learn, so although you were doing it for immersion into the whole teaching thing, it left me going WTF!?!?!? And after following what the videos said step by step I found that my position keeper was WAY off, I finally went to youtube and found a vid there that went step by step and I have since used that method and hit a little more often that I used to. I would be interested in looking at your method if you could do a step by step without all the other distracting stuff (distratcing to me anyways) and explain a little more how and why you are doing what you are doing and where the values come from and etc..

But thanks for all your tips and advice greatly appreciated


by the way.. clayp if you are interested in the video that REALLY helped me with manual targetting (for when you do catch those pesky convoys) here is the link




and here is the write up he gives to go along with it:

1. Identify your target.
Your targeting-computer needs to know the mast height for it to estimate range accurately. First, find your target with periscope-view and lock onto it by pressing "L". Bring up the recognition-manual with the "N" key. Flip through it until you find the correct ship (can be tricky). Then press the little red "ok" box to choose it.

2. Start the position keeper by pressing the white button on the left panel so that it lights up red.
It will keep track of the ship and make sure your torpedoes go where they should.

3. Estimate range by clicking the range-tool on the TDC-dial to the right. A "ghost image" should appear. Drag this image until the waterline of it reaches the top of the mast of the bottom image. Relase, and press the red button to the upper left on the dial to send the data to the TDC. You should redo this to get a more accurate value once the target gets closer.

4. Estimate angle on bow (AOB). To do this, you need to open up the map. Zoom in so that you have both your sub and the ship you are targeting in view. Now click on the angle-calculator-thingy and measure the angle from the ships bow, to your sub like I did in the clip, starting in front of the target, drawing the first line along the centre to about the middle of the ship, then draw the second line down to the centre of your sub. The angle that shows up should now be entered into the TDC with the dial. Remeber that if your target changes heading you must take a new AOB reading.
Don´t forget to send the data to the TDC after every estimation-step.

5. Estimate target speed. The speed estimation on the chronometer was broken at release. Hopefully it will be fixed with patch 1.2. Until then you have to estimate it by observing wake-size and checking the speed on the map (slow,medium,fast).
Enter your estimated value.

6. In the left panel you can then set how deep you want your torpedoes to run (leave it alone if you are noob ) and you can set a "spread" angle for each torpedo to compensate for the targets movement since it takes a while for the torpedo doors to open.

7. When happy with all settings, fire away!

- taken from threedotsred write up on his youtube instructional video for manual targetting

hope this helps you out, I know it worked wonders for me

[Slick Wilhelm]

MH, God bless you, sir!

This is the video I've been waiting for. I'm a "steps" guy, too, when it comes to learning something. I made a M$ Word document based on Neal's video of him attacking the Yamato-class BB. This video is what I was looking for in the first place.

I didn't understand how to use the protractor to get the AOB until this video. Great find!

Next on my list of learning "to do's" is how to use the protractor and compass to mark a contact on the map using WernerSobe's "sonar-only" method of setting up a firing solution. It's the only way I can think of to get a proper course and location of enemy ships when in a storm or in a pitch black night, with no radar. WernerSobe's video is fantastic, but it assumes that one already knows how to use the map tools.....which I don't yet.

What I find interesting is how many otherwise outstanding videos forget to teach the most fundamental aspects of the Nav map & tools. I have yet to find one that talks about nothing but how to plot on the Nav map with the tools.

[Quillan]

That's fairly simple; all bearings are relative. What that means is that the bearing is relative to the current heading of your boat. If sonar gives a target at 30° and 2750 yards away, that means it is 30° off your bow at that distance, so you'd first use the tools to draw a line 30° away from your boat, then put a mark 2750 yards down that line. The mark will be where the target is. Do that twice and you now can draw a line connecting the two points, which gives the course of the target. If you measured the time between the two with the stopwatch, you can now use the time interval and the distance between the two marks to caculate speed, and that gives you all the information you need to set up your attack.

Remember, 0° is directly forward, and the numbers go in a clockwise direction, so 90° is directly off the starboard (right) side, 180° is due astern, and 270° is directly off the port (left) side of the boat.

[Midnight Hunter]

Glad to be of service When I found this video it was like I was a kid in a candy store... I was jumping with glee!! Like you mention, in alot of videos some people just forget that not all of those watching even know all the real basic stuff and it gets overlooked quite often. If I find any other good sources of step by step training I will gladly PM you to see if you can use it.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Midnight Hunter

I have seen the videos, and to be honest, I "tried" to read your thread and with all the story telling in it I honestly couldn't follow what you were trying to instruct lol... I am more of a "by the book" when trying to learn, so although you were doing it for immersion into the whole teaching thing, it left me going WTF!?!?!?

Hmmmmmm.....Maybe I need to work up a different tutorial? I'm looking for input not just from Midnight, but from others too. Do you want an updated and drier version of the tutorial for the Dick O'Kane targeting technique? At last report I couldn't do a video, but I'll check it out again and see what I can do if there's demand for such a thing.

Let me work out the steps for the Dick O'Kane

1. check TDC to ensure PK is off.

2. Set distance on the TDC manually to the largest possible amount, about 1400 yards. You do this by dragging the triangular hairline window down as far as it will bo and pressing the send button. The exact distance entered is not important as distance cancels out of our targeting solution!

3. Plot two positions of your target 3 minutes apart if you are working in imperial measurements or 3 min 15 sec apart if you are working in (yuck!:rotfl metric. Use your ruler or compass to measure the distance. Whatever the units, the distance in yards/meters divided by 100 = speed in knots. 900 meters = 9 knots. 900 yards = 900 knots. Enter that in the TDC and press the send button.

4. It's time to aim your torpedo. We're going to set up a course at right angles to the target's track. Once we get there, our target is going to approach from the right or left. Because you know where he is and where you are, you know what's the easiest to set up. Let's pretend the target will pass from left to right.

4½. Set your AoB. It will be 90º minus our shooting angle from zero, which is 10º in this case = 80º either starboard (for target passing left to right) or port (for target passing right to left). Set it on the TDC and press the send button.

5. Point your periscope at bearing zero (you can do this under water to avoid detection). Now, for a high speed steam torpedo, move the scope 10º in the direction the target will come from. You will be pointing at 350 for a target coming left to right, 10º for a target moving right to left. You're shooting 10º before he gets to zero bearing. Clear? Leave the scope pointing at your planned shoot bearing and press the send range/bearing button. YOU DON"T MESS WITH THE CURSED STADIMETER! Sorry, I feel better now. Don't touch the PK either. Leave it off and save watts.

6. Guess what? Your shot is all lined up! Time to put the sub in position.

7. On your nav map, using your ruler, connect the two plotted positions and extend the line as far as seems good in the direction of the target's movement. Then with help on (open the little hand compass tool) you can use the compass rose on the ruler to measure the target's course.

5. Determine what your course will be at 90º to the track. I usually don't calculate anything. I use the protractor. Click up the track, draw the line to the point you guess will intersect with the right angle course and click a second time. Then draw the other side of the angle toward your sub. You'll see the angle at the vertex. Adjust until it says 90, make sure the line extends beside your sub and click a third time. This line is your course at right angles to the track. You can read the number using the compass rose on the ruler tool like you did earlier.

6. Take the course and get in about 700 yards from the track well before you have to shoot. No sense making this a pressure filled activity, we're all cool on this boat. Throttle down to 1 know when you are close enough to shoot.

7. You can just sit there with the scope down listening to your sonar tech read off the bearings. When he gets to about 340, raise the scope, preset to 350. If he's coming from the other way, when he gets to about 20, raise the scope, preset to 10. Yeah, I know you're going to peek before that to make sure he doesn't get squirrely on you. That's OK, just keep periscope exposure minimal.

8. Open two or three torpedo doors. Your scope is pointed at your shoot bearing, not locked on the ship. Shoot torpedoes as juicy parts of the ship are in the crosshairs. That is precisely where they will hit.

9. Enjoy the results.

Any questions? Anything I left out? There will be a test!

I'm thinking some screenies here and there, with a separate post over in the U-Boat section for them and I've got it!

[Midnight Hunter]

Thanks so much for this.. I am going to try it out the next time I play, now this will work good for unescorted ships, but surely you don't approach a convoy protected by a destroyer screen and close to within 700 yards do you??? If you do then I must bow down a-la wayne's world and do a "we're not worthy". I have another thread where I pointed out my inability to go undetected even while not moving with no scope raised and rigged for red and being 2000 yards away http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=132912

Anyways, I will try this and if I come back here with my first born in my arms I hope you will understand

PS... I hope this isn't taken as a thread hijack, but rather a posting of some material that can help aide not only clayp but the rest of us "n00bs" as we try to better our skills and join the ranks of the subsim aces!!

[Slick Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Quillan

That's fairly simple; all bearings are relative. What that means is that the bearing is relative to the current heading of your boat. If sonar gives a target at 30° and 2750 yards away, that means it is 30° off your bow at that distance, so you'd first use the tools to draw a line 30° away from your boat, then put a mark 2750 yards down that line. The mark will be where the target is. Do that twice and you now can draw a line connecting the two points, which gives the course of the target. If you measured the time between the two with the stopwatch, you can now use the time interval and the distance between the two marks to caculate speed, and that gives you all the information you need to set up your attack.

Remember, 0° is directly forward, and the numbers go in a clockwise direction, so 90° is directly off the starboard (right) side, 180° is due astern, and 270° is directly off the port (left) side of the boat.

Quillan, I actually understand that whole "relative bearing" thing.....but what I'm having trouble with currently is:

A) Using the protractor to draw that bearing line to the target. The explanation that Midnight Hunter gave above really helped in this regard. In his example, the enemy cruiser is already on the map, so he can place the protractor in front of the crusier and then draw the AOB by then drawing the line to the middle of the crusier, then over to the middle of the player's sub. I get that part. BUT, what about when I can't see the enemy ship and I'm using sonar to establish it's bearing and range? How do I use the protractor to establish the first mark I make. I think once I get that bearing line marked, it'll be relatively easy to use the compass to get the range, and then make that first mark on the spot where the two lines intersect.

In short, when I can't see the enemy ship on the NAV map, it makes it more difficult(at least for me) to make that first mark on the NAV map. There's gotta be a video out there that shows this. If not, I may have to make it myself once I figure it out.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Midnight Hunter

Thanks so much for this.. I am going to try it out the next time I play, now this will work good for unescorted ships, but surely you don't approach a convoy protected by a destroyer screen and close to within 700 yards do you??? If you do then I must bow down a-la wayne's world and do a "we're not worthy". I have another thread where I pointed out my inability to go undetected even while not moving with no scope raised and rigged for red and being 2000 yards away http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=132912

Anyways, I will try this and if I come back here with my first born in my arms I hope you will understand

PS... I hope this isn't taken as a thread hijack, but rather a posting of some material that can help aide not only clayp but the rest of us "n00bs" as we try to better our skills and join the ranks of the subsim aces!!

That's where the story in the seminar version comes in. No technique is right for all occasions. And this technique is accurate much further away than conventional techniques, because the stadimeter is the weakest link in the chain, giving you unreliable information. The Dick O'Kane throws the stadimeter out the window. So don't be afraid to use it from much greater range.

I have the same problem with detection with escorted convoys. Often I had four escorts to deal with then when I was dealing with late 1944 in the first version of RSRD. It's fixed now. Sometimes you have no choice but to deal with the esorts first to whittle their numbers down.

I've had great luck with the tendency for multiple escorts to have one or two just stop and listen while the others pound you. Try to get the active ones behind you. Turn the PK off, Set range to the 1100 yards or so manually, just like in Dick O'Kane. Set speed zero, AoB zero. This is a point and shoot. You'll point the periscope, press the send range/bearing button and send a torpedo right down that bearing.

Now get the one or two active escorts on your tail and escape far enough to buy at least a minute. Come up to periscope depth and look for the parked ones. All you do is point, lock, press send range/bearing, open door and shoot. Goodbye escort, and it's nearly a 100% hit probability.

Now bust loose from the entire convoy, do an end around and new approach from the other side. You'll get to the merchies now!

[Slick Wilhelm]

Rockin Robbins, I appreciate the virtues of the Dick O'Kane method, but I have yet to be in a position where I can always be at a 90 degree AOB for a shot. My poor old S-37 isn't fast enough to get me there. In fact, since my luck has so far decreed that I will discover enemy ships only at night, during storms....I need to use the WernerSobe "sonar-only" method. I figure that if I can master that, anything else will be easier.

Now it's perfectly possible that I'm biting off more than I can chew by choosing to learn that method first. I just thought that would be a good way to really have to know how to use the NAV map tools.

I sure do appreciate all the help, though!

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually I knew the sonar only technique almost two months before aaronblood, gutted and I developed the Dick O'Kane method, so don't feel bad! Anyway, the sonar only technique is much more fun! There's no adrenaline rush like plowing three torpedoes into a target you've never seen. Any amount of trouble learning how is worth it.

Let me take a stab at the plotting deal. First, I'm going to assume you're at all-stop when you're doing the sonar pinging. You don't have to be. But with your ruler, draw your course on the chart, extending in front of you on the correct bearing.

Now you can use the protractor to do your bearing lines. First, start out ahead of your sub and click. Move back to the middle of your sub for the second click. Then extend the other line out, reading the angle at the vertex (the middle of your sub). Extend that line out there to beyond where the target is going to be and click. Now you have a bearing line that goes through the target. You're going to have to figure bearings between 180 and 360 by calculating how many degrees before 360 they are and plotting that angle. A bearing of 270º is 90º left.

I know this stuff may be over simplified, but I want as many people to get this as can.

Now take the compass and click on the center of your sub. Extend the circle out to the distance of the target range. Where your circle crosses the bearing line is your target.

Wait 3 minutes (for imperial measurements) and do it again, plotting the new position of the target. Measuring the distance between the two positions and dividing by 100 gives you speed in knots. 750 yards is 7½ knots. Extending the line gives you the target course. Using the protractor, click ahead of him on the course line, click on him then click on your sub to measure the AoB.

You now have the course, speed and distance to enter into the TDC. You can directly enter bearing and distance from the sonar as Werner does. Click on the PK after you get a good range/bearing.

You'll hit your target!