Dumb Things the AI Does That You Want Fixed - Page 2

SeaQueen · 01-23-08, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

SO, what AI behaviors would you have me tweak, assuming I can still do such a thing?

The AI fires off torpedoes and VLA with complete disregard for it's own safety and that of other ships it's trying to defend. This is stupid and unrealistic. It'd be nice if it did things like set some presets to ensure it wouldn't hit itself, and maybe be more judicious about VLA salvos. Shooting off all 8 is a little bit excessive. The way it shoots it's almost as much of a danger to itself and everyone around it as it is to the thing it's trying to kill.

LuftWolf · 01-23-08, 11:49 AM

Well, the biggest limitation of the way the DW handles AI, is that it isn't possible for a platform to reference two other platforms relative to each other.

In other words, if there is a distant target and a friendly or neutral in between, there is no way to say to the objective platform "don't fire on that target because there is a potential blue-on-blue". In DW, the AI going to fire, and the faith is that the automatic presets put on the weapon will prevent the friendly fire... obviously, this doesn't always happen.

I've been thinking about how to get around this, but no luck so far...

Another limitation is that the doctrine system appears to merely provide the AI platforms with "suggestions" on what they should do in terms of weapons use and how they handle contacts. Very few of the doctrine commands actually command the AI to do something directly... it's more like it puts the idea of doing it on their proverbial radar, and then the AI core in the NavalSimEngine determines if they are actually going to do it.

I'd imagine the contract versions of DW have a much more reliable way of directing AI behavior...

Cheers,
David

Kazuaki Shimazaki II · 01-23-08, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I'd imagine the contract versions of DW have a much more reliable way of directing AI behavior...

Cheers,
David

I'll be betting that they have a "Harpoon" or FC interface on the other side where Instructor commands every non-student unit in general (again, Harpoon-like) terms. That's the easiest way to ensure smart behavior.

caymanlee · 01-25-08, 07:53 AM

DSRV behave totally wrong, big problem. can't reach the objective sub

@LuftWolf: may be a new doctrine for Attack Midget Sub which can attack submarine/ ship by Torpedo/Mine, release Special forces, and the midget sub can be launched and recover by a bigger sub(just like DSRV), for example: Russian project 865--known as LOSOS class

Cheers,
Cayman

SeaQueen · 01-26-08, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I'll be betting that they have a "Harpoon" or FC interface on the other side where Instructor commands every non-student unit in general (again, Harpoon-like) terms. That's the easiest way to ensure smart behavior.

Yeah... that's how the USMC uses TACOPS from what I understand... with a "behind the scenes" team of instructors playing the red side.

SeaQueen · 01-25-08, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I'd imagine the contract versions of DW have a much more reliable way of directing AI behavior...

You know... that's an interesting question as to whether it does or not. My experience with most company's models is that they're really quite limited. They're good at doing something specific and that's it. Lots of companies market their models as all things to all people (HA! Like JWARS!) but really, that's just marketing. The best computer models are designed with a specific type of problem in mind, and while they can often be used to get insight into other problems, the further away you get from the original intent, the less applicable the model typically is.

The other problem is that the tendancy with computer models is to want to put more and more data into them for the sake of "realism" the problem with that is that the more things there are to vary in a model, the less insight it typically yields because it becomes possible for one to arrive at lots of possible outcomes making different assuptions about the various inputs. How likely are any of those? Who knows... maybe they ought to consult another computer model! HA!

I've actually calculated the results of various situations using pencil and paper and then built computer models to reproduce those results because the Navy customer demanded a computer model, even though I knew what the answer was without one. I'm not sure whether I should laugh at them or cry because of the sorry state of affairs in the Navy.

LoBlo · 03-01-08, 10:33 PM

Here are a couple of AI pet-peves.

1. I hate how the AI Aircraft carriers don't maximize the amount of aircraft they launch.

From what I've seen the AI CVs only launch and sustain 2-3 aircraft overhead to counter surface/air threats. I'ld like to see the CVs launch more continuous streams of squadrons. Sure you could script, prefabricated air-stations with fighters, but then their patrol zones would be locked-in and not flexible to where the carrier was located or locations of the threats.

2. The AI ASW aircraft don't drop sonabuoys when they should. Mainly the P3 and sometimes the S3 Vikings.

3. AI platforms running into dry land. Why sometimes the AI subs turn toward a landmass and decide to run into it even when "land avoidance" is on, is beyond me.

4. AI Surface ships blasting sonar even past washout speeds. This is more of a scenarios design issue. But nonetheless perhaps a addition to the doctrine to auto-turnoff active sonar if ship speed is above washout? Perhaps.

5. No "sprint and drift" option for escorts. Its in the AI programming of Harpoon 3; why not DW. Especially since the games is primarily a ASW sim. Surface and subs should have had this as an option in the mission editor platform tatics. A pretty annoying oversight OMHO.

Whether any of these are fixable or not is beyond me.

LuftWolf · 03-03-08, 11:25 AM

Ok, as part of the effort to get the modding process off the ground, and to get everyone on the same page, I'm going to go through the few threads we have running now and do a matrix of all the suggestions that everyone has offered, what I can do about each issue, and what could theoretically be done if I were not limited by technical obstacles that I have the power to resolve.

In looking back, 3.08 comes pretty close to fixing all the fixables... so there are really only a few loose ends that can be tied up.

Most of the focus at this point can/should be adding new features... which some other modders have done successfully.

In terms of adding the advanced torpedo features... wow that's a big project, but I've already put so much work in, it would dissappoint me if I never got a working version out for the community.

I wish the job I had now wasn't as chaotic and my life was way more settled... more like the summer of 2006 when I worked about eight weeks straight on this mod like 50+ hours a week with all the testing and extra playing. Now that was fun.

Cheers,
David

Dr.Sid · 03-03-08, 03:02 PM

Luftwolf, I still wonder what unfixale bug in DSRV you have encountered.

GrayOwl · 03-04-08, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Luftwolf, I still wonder what unfixale bug in DSRV you have encountered.

Variable TgtAlt is not passed in the doctrine from the NavalSimEngine.

1. It is not known what depth should to borrow DSRV at rapproachement with the Sunk Sub.

2. Not the static situation of the sunk Sub - DSRV is floating on the originally received coordinates of the Target. However Target does not cost on a place - she is gradually displaced, as there is no complete statics of object.
DSRV comes in the given point and the saved submarine already left in other position (And it thus that the speed is established on 0, however object all the same has displacement - he not completely static).
Damn It…

Dr.Sid · 03-04-08, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayOwl

1. It is not known what depth should to borrow DSRV at rapproachement with the Sunk Sub.

This is not problem of the engine. It's because DSRV has no sensor which could detect target altitude. I overcame this by creating new sensor, HF sonar, with flag 'reports target alt'. Then the target depth WAS passed to the doctrine.

Molon Labe · 03-03-08, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Ok, as part of the effort to get the modding process off the ground, and to get everyone on the same page, I'm going to go through the few threads we have running now and do a matrix of all the suggestions that everyone has offered, what I can do about each issue, and what could theoretically be done if I were not limited by technical obstacles that I have the power to resolve.

In looking back, 3.08 comes pretty close to fixing all the fixables... so there are really only a few loose ends that can be tied up.

Most of the focus at this point can/should be adding new features... which some other modders have done successfully.

In terms of adding the advanced torpedo features... wow that's a big project, but I've already put so much work in, it would dissappoint me if I never got a working version out for the community.

I wish the job I had now wasn't as chaotic and my life was way more settled... more like the summer of 2006 when I worked about eight weeks straight on this mod like 50+ hours a week with all the testing and extra playing. Now that was fun.

Cheers,
David

I'm already a step ahead of you. Check out http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...hp?projectid=2. It won't have any of the very new stuff, but most of the suggestions from this thread at the lwami patch suggestions thread are there.

Hitman · 03-04-08, 03:34 PM

I find it most annoying that in the quick missions the enemy AI submarines go at high speeds, making detection & tracking of them very easy.

No idea if this has something to do with doctrines or with the instructions the game gives them when creating the mission, but it ruins that nice feature, which I missed so much in Sub Command

Dr.Sid · 03-04-08, 04:02 PM

I'm afraid this is unfixable. But what I hate more on quickmissions is that sometimes the enemy sub is generated 1 nm from you, which means it will launch torpedo at you in like 10 seconds.

Molon Labe · 03-04-08, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitman

I find it most annoying that in the quick missions the enemy AI submarines go at high speeds, making detection & tracking of them very easy.

No idea if this has something to do with doctrines or with the instructions the game gives them when creating the mission, but it ruins that nice feature, which I missed so much in Sub Command

They are sprinting to identify a platform reported as unidentified by their Side. (I griped about this earlier in the thread)

01-23-08, 11:49 AM	#2
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Well, the biggest limitation of the way the DW handles AI, is that it isn't possible for a platform to reference two other platforms relative to each other. In other words, if there is a distant target and a friendly or neutral in between, there is no way to say to the objective platform "don't fire on that target because there is a potential blue-on-blue". In DW, the AI going to fire, and the faith is that the automatic presets put on the weapon will prevent the friendly fire... obviously, this doesn't always happen. I've been thinking about how to get around this, but no luck so far... Another limitation is that the doctrine system appears to merely provide the AI platforms with "suggestions" on what they should do in terms of weapons use and how they handle contacts. Very few of the doctrine commands actually command the AI to do something directly... it's more like it puts the idea of doing it on their proverbial radar, and then the AI core in the NavalSimEngine determines if they are actually going to do it. I'd imagine the contract versions of DW have a much more reliable way of directing AI behavior... Cheers, David __________________ LW

03-01-08, 10:33 PM	#7
LoBlo Subsim Diehard Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas! Posts: 971 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 3	Here are a couple of AI pet-peves. 1. I hate how the AI Aircraft carriers don't maximize the amount of aircraft they launch. From what I've seen the AI CVs only launch and sustain 2-3 aircraft overhead to counter surface/air threats. I'ld like to see the CVs launch more continuous streams of squadrons. Sure you could script, prefabricated air-stations with fighters, but then their patrol zones would be locked-in and not flexible to where the carrier was located or locations of the threats. 2. The AI ASW aircraft don't drop sonabuoys when they should. Mainly the P3 and sometimes the S3 Vikings. 3. AI platforms running into dry land. Why sometimes the AI subs turn toward a landmass and decide to run into it even when "land avoidance" is on, is beyond me. 4. AI Surface ships blasting sonar even past washout speeds. This is more of a scenarios design issue. But nonetheless perhaps a addition to the doctrine to auto-turnoff active sonar if ship speed is above washout? Perhaps. 5. No "sprint and drift" option for escorts. Its in the AI programming of Harpoon 3; why not DW. Especially since the games is primarily a ASW sim. Surface and subs should have had this as an option in the mission editor platform tatics. A pretty annoying oversight OMHO. Whether any of these are fixable or not is beyond me. __________________ "Seek not to offend or annoy... only to speak the truth"-a wise man

03-03-08, 11:25 AM	#8
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Ok, as part of the effort to get the modding process off the ground, and to get everyone on the same page, I'm going to go through the few threads we have running now and do a matrix of all the suggestions that everyone has offered, what I can do about each issue, and what could theoretically be done if I were not limited by technical obstacles that I have the power to resolve. In looking back, 3.08 comes pretty close to fixing all the fixables... so there are really only a few loose ends that can be tied up. Most of the focus at this point can/should be adding new features... which some other modders have done successfully. In terms of adding the advanced torpedo features... wow that's a big project, but I've already put so much work in, it would dissappoint me if I never got a working version out for the community. I wish the job I had now wasn't as chaotic and my life was way more settled... more like the summer of 2006 when I worked about eight weeks straight on this mod like 50+ hours a week with all the testing and extra playing. Now that was fun. Cheers, David __________________ LW

03-04-08, 03:34 PM	#13
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,109 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	I find it most annoying that in the quick missions the enemy AI submarines go at high speeds, making detection & tracking of them very easy. No idea if this has something to do with doctrines or with the instructions the game gives them when creating the mission, but it ruins that nice feature, which I missed so much in Sub Command __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

01-25-08, 07:53 AM	#4
caymanlee Medic Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Centre Posts: 161 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	DSRV behave totally wrong, big problem. can't reach the objective sub @LuftWolf: may be a new doctrine for Attack Midget Sub which can attack submarine/ ship by Torpedo/Mine, release Special forces, and the midget sub can be launched and recover by a bigger sub(just like DSRV), for example: Russian project 865--known as LOSOS class Cheers, Cayman

03-03-08, 03:02 PM	#9
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Luftwolf, I still wonder what unfixale bug in DSRV you have encountered.

03-04-08, 04:02 PM	#14
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	I'm afraid this is unfixable. But what I hate more on quickmissions is that sometimes the enemy sub is generated 1 nm from you, which means it will launch torpedo at you in like 10 seconds.