The Evangelical "War" on Science

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Chock

Well that does it for me, if I didn't have enough reason to dislike organised religion before, claiming that Dinosaurs (presumably including Barney) are created by God, is now swinging it for me.

Chock

Chock, what are we going to do with you?:hmm: There is no such thing as a "dinosaur" since it was not mentioned in the Bible. You are spreading heresy and must be burned at the stake.....or....the comfy chair:hmm: :hmm: Yes, the comfy chair! Cardinal Biggles! Fetch the comfy chair!

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Chock

Well that does it for me, if I didn't have enough reason to dislike organised religion before, claiming that Dinosaurs (presumably including Barney) are created by God, is now swinging it for me.

Chock

And yes, Barney is real!

[TteFAboB]

He's not only real, but he's most obviously the work of the devil.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

He's not only real, but he's most obviously the work of the devil.

HE IS PURPLE! By george you're right!

[SUBMAN1]

The funny thing is between Darwin and the Evangelicals - they are both right.

-S

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

The funny thing is between Darwin and the Evangelicals - they are both right.

-S

Hm...?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Hm...?

The point I'm making is their pea brains can't fathom the idea that god is pure energy (You know this since it would have killed Moses to see his face - the radiation would have killed him instantly), putting him into the 4th and 5th dimensions easily - ie. outside of time, and at multiple points in space/time at the same time. So the Evangelicals read in a day he created the Heavens and Earth in the bible and they take that litterally. Well, maybe if you were standing with God during his creation, you would have had a single days time pass. However, if you were standing upon the Earth, you'd be an old man, billions of years old during its creation. Time is easily changed for god, since you will find passages of how vast distances in space are traveled by simply stepping over a line in a moment in time. How can this be? A manipulation of gravity obviously, Ripping space time with it and pulling the place in the Universe to you, instead of you travelling to it. The Ligo project is already showing how gravity warps time and space, so you already know how this happens. Funny how they already talk about it in an ancient book when the idea is modern.

Other things I question - Angels probably don't have wings. How can an ancient person describe disappearing in an energy source (ie transported)? How can they describe the ability to fly? All they know are simple things - wings.

I can go on all day and put things into a technological and science perspective, but I have to say BOTH science / Darwin, and the Evangelicals are right, just that either side is not opening up their minds to see both sides of the picture.

My guess is that god says he owns all things, so if you look at string theory and understand that all that is solid is not. It is simply energy, I'd say that he is all the energy in the Universe and beyond, so he owns/is your matter too.

-S

[Letum]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

The point I'm making is their pea brains can't fathom the idea that god is pure energy (You know this since it would have killed Moses to see his face - the radiation would have killed him instantly), putting him into the 4th and 5th dimensions easily - ie. outside of time, and at multiple points in space/time at the same time. So the Evangelicals read in a day he created the Heavens and Earth in the bible and they take that litterally. Well, maybe if you were standing with God during his creation, you would have had a single days time pass. However, if you were standing upon the Earth, you'd be an old man, billions of years old during its creation. Time is easily changed for god, since you will find passages of how vast distances in space are traveled by simply stepping over a line in a moment in time. How can this be? A manipulation of gravity obviously, Ripping space time with it and pulling the place in the Universe to you, instead of you travelling to it. The Ligo project is already showing how gravity warps time and space, so you already know how this happens. Funny how they already talk about it in an ancient book when the idea is modern.

Other things I question - Angels probably don't have wings. How can an ancient person describe disappearing in an energy source (ie transported)? How can they describe the ability to fly? All they know are simple things - wings.

I can go on all day and put things into a technological and science perspective, but I have to say BOTH science / Darwin, and the Evangelicals are right, just that either side is not opening up their minds to see both sides of the picture.

My guess is that god says he owns all things, so if you look at string theory and understand that all that is solid is not. It is simply energy, I'd say that he is all the energy in the Universe and beyond, so he owns/is your matter too.

-S

Only one thing to do with a quote like that...

/submits

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

The point I'm making is their pea brains can't fathom the idea that god is pure energy (You know this since it would have killed Moses to see his face - the radiation would have killed him instantly), putting him into the 4th and 5th dimensions easily - ie. outside of time, and at multiple points in space/time at the same time. So the Evangelicals read in a day he created the Heavens and Earth in the bible and they take that litterally. Well, maybe if you were standing with God during his creation, you would have had a single days time pass. However, if you were standing upon the Earth, you'd be an old man, billions of years old during its creation. Time is easily changed for god, since you will find passages of how vast distances in space are traveled by simply stepping over a line in a moment in time. How can this be? A manipulation of gravity obviously, Ripping space time with it and pulling the place in the Universe to you, instead of you travelling to it. The Ligo project is already showing how gravity warps time and space, so you already know how this happens. Funny how they already talk about it in an ancient book when the idea is modern.

Other things I question - Angels probably don't have wings. How can an ancient person describe disappearing in an energy source (ie transported)? How can they describe the ability to fly? All they know are simple things - wings.

I can go on all day and put things into a technological and science perspective, but I have to say BOTH science / Darwin, and the Evangelicals are right, just that either side is not opening up their minds to see both sides of the picture.

My guess is that god says he owns all things, so if you look at string theory and understand that all that is solid is not. It is simply energy, I'd say that he is all the energy in the Universe and beyond, so he owns/is your matter too.

-S

I pass. Too much mixing, for my taste. In all what you juist said, there is no need at all to still think in terms of a deity somewhere out there, or in matter, or in time.

[VipertheSniper]

Originally Posted by Letum

Only one thing to do with a quote like that...

/submits

I don't know, I think it's not hairraising enough...

[SUBMAN1]

Just trying to look at it from a logical perspective based on the science we know. And yes Skybird, how would one explain the Big Bang without god? This stuff just magically appear for no reason? Not sure how that could happen. Just some things in this Universe don't make sense without the existence of a creator. The Big Bang being one of them.

I've looked at both sides. Went away from god (yes, you might have considered me an atheist at the time) when I was in my teens and early 20's, but the more I understand science, the more I can't see any other way this could happen, our being could happen, our Universe existing without a creator. I can't explain it any other way.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Letum

Only one thing to do with a quote like that...

/submits

Yeah - why don't you post it? Some of the more intellectual there may understand what I am talking about. Most people don't get dimensional time space theory, but some of the smarter people do.

To help you on your quest to understand, here is something to educate you on String Theory: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

One of the things you will learn in there is that solid matter is not solid at all. Everything, all matter around you is nothing more than pure energy. Trust me though, prepare to be a bit shocked.

-S

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Just trying to look at it from a logical perspective based on the science we know. And yes Skybird, how would one explain the Big Bang without god? This stuff just magically appear for no reason? Not sure how that could happen. Just some things in this Universe don't make sense without the existence of a creator. The Big Bang being one of them.

I've looked at both sides. Went away from god (yes, you might have considered me an atheist at the time) when I was in my teens and early 20's, but the more I understand science, the more I can't see any other way this could happen, our being could happen, our Universe existing without a creator. I can't explain it any other way.

-S

Big Bang? Who says it has been like that? In past years, some people defending religions pointed finger at me and complained that I were saying that Darwin is the ultimate truth. I never indicated that belief, though. It's a theory - but in my eyes the currently best theory we have, making much more sense than any other. Big Bang also is a theory, born by a thinking that assumes that there must be a beginning and an end, and between the two time is "moving" from the first to the latter. But there are other models and thoughts, that simply do not include any beginning or ending, but saying that "it" simply is, never being born, never dying. I personally think that big Bang somehow is even a somewhat stupid, infantile theory, which says more about our disrupted way of thinking and making models of the world and our place in it, than saying something about reality. You see, I have seen some strange things and made some strange experiences that made me thinking that our concept of time if flawed, and that there is no beginning and no ending like big Bang and entropic heat-death of the universe. This theory only reaches as far as our current scientific knowledge allows us to go. I am also 100% sure that neither intellect nor ego alone can explain the universe, as you put it. That is like something limited trying to embrace the unlimited, so to speak. If you want to understand the universe, turn to your inner self. All the space up there - is your true inner space, just that. In the end, all life as well as astronomical reasearch is just the mind's dance with itself.

So, that is the essence of my conclusions, there is only your mind experiencing yourself, and all things you consider to be there - time, matter, God, sense and meaning - are only misled interpretations. But things are like they are, and what they are, your interpretation orginally is not needed., nor is your emotional reaction. While what is will set you free, and lead you beyond all boundaries of your intellectual or religious imagining. If you want to see the truth, loose your self and come to your unconditional awareness. Self-realization is only possible at the cost of self-transcendence: the more you want to see the true reality there is, the more you need to be unaware of yourself. that is the meaning behind the story of Jesus chasing the traders out of the temple. the more "yourself" there is, the less awareness of reality there is. total awareness of reality means: total absence of your "self".

When googling for the english translation of a Zen one-liner I wanted to give you, to my surprise I stumbled over a name I know - my second teacher and mentor, Wolfgang Kopp. He got quoted from a collection of transcripted speeches some students of him have collected and published in book form. Please note that the text is not to missionise concerning any ideology, nor is it arguing in favour or against any religion, it also does not tell anyone just to believe this or that, but leaves it up to you wether to analysize it by self-experience, or not. So take it for itself, not more, not less. From the following link, the first two texts, "Mysterious peaceful joy", and "The cheerfulness of the soul":
http://peterspearls.com.au/joy.htm
(bold printing and markings by the website's creator, not by Zensho).

You will note that by context, content and direction, it is right the same what I am occassionaly trying to point at, too. Also note that Zensho is a fully "ordinated" Zen Master and dharma-follower of Soji Enku Roshi, but nevertheless - like me - is not shy to refer to the Christian gospels and christian mystics, and Jesus. I already was like that when I first met him. He deepened my understanding of christian mystic, though.

Zensho and me always differed on the role of Paul, though.

One of my most favourite sayings:
Mind is of shining clarity, so throw away the darkness of all your terms. Free yourself from everything! - Huang Po. (my translation from German.)

That includes Darwin, Big Bang and evangelical confusion as well. Move beyond these dualistic arguments!

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Big Bang? Who says it has been like that? In past years, some people defending religons pointed finger at me and complained i were saying that Darwin is the ultimate truth. I never indicated that belief, though. It's a theory - but in my eyes the currently best theory we have, making much more sense than any other. Big Bang also is a theory, born by a thinking that ssumes that there must be a beginning and an end, and between the two time is "moving" from the first to the latter. But there are other models and thoughts, that simply do not inlcude any beginning or ending, but saying that "it" simply is, never being born, never dying. I personally thino that big Bang somehow is even a somewhat stupid theory, which says more about our disrupted way of thinking and malking models of the world and our place in it, than saying something about reality. You see, I have seen some strnage things and made some strange experiences that made me assume that our concept of time if flawed, and that there is no beginning and no ending like big Bang and entropic heat-death of the universe. This theory only reaches as far as our current scientific knowledge allows us to go. I also am 100% sure that neither intellect nor ego alone cannot explain the universe, as you put it. That is like something limited trying to embrace the unlimited, so to speak.

In the end, there is only your mind experiencing yourself, and all things you consider to be there, time, matter, God, sense and meaning, are only interpretations. While what is will set you free, and lead you beyond all boundaries of your intellectual or religious imagining. If you want to see the truth, loose your self and come to your unconditional awareness. self-realization is only possible at the cost of self-transcendence: the more you want to see the true reality there is, the more you need to be unaware of yourself.

When googling for the english translation of a Zen one-liner I wanted to give you, to my surprise I stumbled over a name I know - my second teacher and mentor, Wolfgang Kopp. He got quoted from a collection of transcripted speeches some students of him have collected and pusblished in book form. Please note that the text is not to missionise concerning any ideology, nor is it arguing in favour or against any religion, it also does not tell anyone just to believe this or that, but leaves it up to you wether to analysize it by self-experience, or not. So take it for itself, not more, not less. From the following link, the first two texts, "Mysterious peaceful joy", and "The cheerfulness of the soul":
http://peterspearls.com.au/joy.htm
(bold printing and markings by the website's creator, not by Zensho).

You will note that by context, content and direction, it is right the same what I am occassionaly try to point at, too. Also note that Zensho is a fully "ordinated" Zen Master and dharma-follower of Soji Enku Roshi, but nevertheless -like me - is not shy to refer to the Christian gospels and christian mystics. I already was like that when I first met him.

Zensho and me always differed on the role of Paul, though.

One of my most favourite sayings:
Mind is of shining clarity, so throw away the darkness of all your terms. Free yourself from everything! - Huang Po. (my translation from German.)

That includes Darwin, Big Bang and evangelical confusion as well. Move beyond these dualistic arguments.

SHould I throw away the idea that up is up and down is down? Just messing with you on that one. I hear you though. Life is about trying ot explain ones world and existence. Like you, I believe in Darwin, but unlike you, I pretty much believe in Darwin absolute. There is no other explanation. Darwin is right. But, as you can see (I assume you are the same), I don't take what it is I beleive without question. Someone tells me something is this, well, for me I like to know how it is 'this'. I always need to understand, not simply accept.

-S

[Skybird]

But Darwins theory already has seen corrections, and changes in some formerly popular content. It is a theory, thta means: it is meaning and interpretation added to observation. and being a theory that it is, it is object to chnages and alternations when our knowledge has widened a bit to make that step necessary. It is not different to the thoery of einstein. Quantum physics. Medical paradigms. None of that is neither an observed total reality, nor the ultimate interpretation. in the end, science compares to the chess player in Hesse's "Der Steppenwolf". Like that player philosophizes about being able to built infinite chess realities (positions) by just combining the same pieces in different ways, science takes subjective moments of obsrvation and perception, and set them into artifical relations and orders, like a collector is putting miniatures into a case, according to the order he has decided on all by himself. This does not mean it is a useless effort, in fact it makes sense to him - his sense. So the way we arrange science is useful for us: it enables us to fly in the air and close space, it enables us to dive deep into the ocean and find medication for deseases - but it also makes us thinking in certain ways, infleuncing our lives in a given way, and putting our golobal existence at risk in a certain manner. It is just one amongst myriads of chess positions, and it is us deciding where we set the pieces to create an interesting position. that is what in Hesse's book is called "Aufbau-kunst". All science is Aufbaukunst - and thus, highly arbitraily, non-objective. It cannot be objective, never, as long as there is soemthing making use of it, and being the subject in the event of obsrving an object. Only the fall of the difference between subject and object allows for "total percpetion". And that means: becoming the process of what is happening yourself. And that means: truth, ultimate reality, God's face - you name it.

When Christian mystics say "Die before you have to die, then live your life - all is good", they are pretty damn serious about it! It means "kill your self, kill your beliefs, kill your illusions of an ego, kill all your terms and conceptions, kill God, kill buddha if you meet him - and finally see that there never was anything you needed to kill and that got killed, for it never was real and never was there anyway. at that point, you will gain ultimate freedom, no matter what your life is, and you will not been born and you cannot die. That is what "free mind" really is. It is not the gaining of something, it is the absence of something: illusions, the veil of maya covering the reality from your eyes, the ego, the dualistic polarisation creating your understanding of what world is, or better: get's constructed by.

It is - not more, not less, for nothing is needed, and nothing is left uncomplete.