How to maintain depth with zero speed

[jmr]

I recall reading in Blind Man's Bluff that there was one nuke skipper who would shut off the pumps and use "ballast parties" of sending men forward and aft to keep his boat steady.

[Jimbuna]

The Reduced Buoyancy Mod when activated will be pretty close to neutral.....when it's ready

[Chock]

I was reading on some sub background material which stated that at the beginning of WWII the men who went into the German sub service had ***five years*** of training prior to entering the submarine.

Yup, the original guys in the German subs were vastly experienced sailors in many cases. When the Kriegsmarine training barque Niobe capsised in a storm in 1932 (with the loss of seventy trainee officers) Admiral Erich Raeder put out a request to the major shipping lines for experienced men, and he got some good guys, among these were Gunther Prien and Heinrich Bleichdrodt!

And the officer training was tough too, it consisted of two days physical fitness testing (with a 25 percent failure rate), followed by five months basic training for successful candidates at Danholm. Then, four months sailing training on a three-masted barque. After that, you got the formal rank of Seekadet at which point you were posted to (typically) a cruiser, and stayed with it on what was usually a trip around the world, this lasted up to nine months. Then you went to Murwick for seven more months' training, at which point you'd get the rank of Fahnrich zur See (midshipman).

Everything up to this point was standard training for every officer, regardless of whether they were going to be on a sub or not. At this point if you were a prospective line officer, you got several months weapon training, then you'd be assigned to a warship for yet another stint of six months, after which, if you did okay, you'd get promoted to Oberfahnrich. Then, you'd serve in that role for up to three years, after which, a vote by your peers would see you promoted to Leutnant zur See.

Anyone who wanted an engineering role, such as a chief, took extra exams at Murwick, which if passed, led to about five months of workshop training, followed by another six month stint on a warship, and after that, if you did alright, you'd be promoted to Leutnant (Ing). But if you wanted to be on a sub as an officer, you'd also have a further 12 week training course with classroom theory and exercises of a practical nature too. And you had to get 15 successful practice attacks in before you were allowed to progress to the next stage, which would be a stint on a U-Boat in a learning role under an experienced commander, followed by a posting to a training flotilla for even more schooling and practice.

If you made it through all that, and were lucky enough to get a new boat, you'd assemble with your prospective crew before the boat was built, this lasting up to 3 months. This was so you literally knew your boat inside out, as you got to see how it was put together. When the boat was nearing completion, any experienced officers or crew you were going to get would join you. Then you'd have three weeks of acceptance trials, followed by one of the toughest tests of all, at the Technical Group for Front U-Boats. This was an extremely realistic exercise where a highly experienced commander would accompany the fledgling captain and 'put him through the mill'. It was dreaded by candidates and many boats were actually lost in this test, at it was extremely tough and realistic. If you passed, your boat was declared ready for the front, and was refitted, during which you might get some leave, then it was off to Kiel, on with the torpedoes, and off you went to active service.

NCO's training was no less tough either, with a typical NCO on a U-Boat having to have at least three years on U-Boats, and this was on top of the selection for the ordinary seamen on the boat, which was also tough in the extreme, with a high rejection rate and no shortage of volunteers for most of the period right up until the end of WW2.

And we get a paper manual, less than 100 pages long:rotfl:

Chock

[PavelKirilovich]

It seems to me that most of the annoyance with regards to GWX is that it overcompensates for the initial lack of detailed seamanship in SH3.

So what we get is the player (Kaleun) being forced to act as CE, planesmen, and diving PO.
Obviously some players prefer that the AI filling their roles actually do their job.
Some enjoy the seafaring aspect.

My suggestion would be for the coding to be altered to simulate the crew doing their best to keep the boat at the ordered depth, +/- ~10-20m or so if a drastic change is what's desired. Alternatively the reduced positive bouyancy mod and suspension of disbelief simulates such action with a highly skilled crew who don't mind the ultra micromanagement of the boat.

Here's something we see in Das Boot, even. The off duty crew being displaced forwards when a crash dive is ordered to "weight" the bow further and speed the dive rate. That's another example of how SH3 doesn't really model the sailing aspects of a naval simulation. Fortunately for us it does model the combat aspects. I didn't install "MicroSoft Sailboat v3.0" here when I ran the SH3 DVD-ROM for the first time.

[TarJak]

On the contrary Pavel, SHIII does model crew weight distribution. Here's a couple of simple tests you can try for yourself;

Start off in calm weather, set depth to 7-8m decks awash with all your crew manning the aft most compartments. Set speed ahead slow. Check the attidude of the sub with the external cameral and have a look at the bow waves that are coming over the bow. Then move all your men as far forward as they can fit and repeat the view. The main thing you will notice is that your bow waves create much less splash than when your men are in the aft compartments.

I have used this technique when making night surface approaches for the past year with some success. I've also tested the spotting distances and there is a slight advantage to having your crew forward when running decks awash.

The second test is with crash diving. Save a game at a point again so the repeat can start in exactly the same conditions. Move all your crew aft and then order a crash dive timing how long it takes to get to 60m. Exit, load the save and repeat with all the crew in the forward compartments. I've recorded up to 2 seconds improvement in CD times with the crew forward over the crew aft. Usually the difference is between 1 to 1.5 secs but always better. Same result when surfacing. Angle of attack is altered by moving the crew forward or aft so you can surface at a steeper angle if the crew are aft than if they are forward.

Damage and flooding can also affect these results so it is best done with a fresh undamaged sub.

OK you can't get the crew to do stuff of their own volition, but as I understand it, that would require changes to the source code to make the crew move between compartments as part of an order to dive or surface. Unfortunately that's not likely to happen anytime soon.

[Subnuts]

Take a look at the plans on this website:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570DesignBook.htm

Specifically, Plates 6, 7, 11, 12, 16, and 17. Considering the complexity of the compressed air, trimming, compensating, and ballast systems onboard a submarine of even that era, it's pretty hard to imagine even the most elite U-boat crew achieving perfect trim at full stop.

Oh, and the numbers of valves, manifolds, air lines, etc. in the control room is frankly nightmarish!