In this corner, "President" Musharraf

[Foxtrot]

As I see that Benazir is not innocent either. She and her husband (aka Mr 10%) are involved in numerous financial scandals. Poland, France, Switzerland and UAE gave enough proofs related to their corrpution.
"Al-Zulfikar" terrorist group was ran by one of her brothers.
I seriously don't think that the rich girl is interested in country and its people. She probably wants to increase her bank balance a bit more.

One of her pretty and yummy family member talks about her :hmm:

[Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by mapuc

One thing I know for sure, is that the government(US) is monitoring the situation very carefully and if needed, they will take some special unit from Iraq and/or/Afghanistan to take contol over the Pakistans nukes.

Markus

sounds like a nice plot for B-class Hollywood movie.

Any recommendation for actors? :p

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by mapuc

What about their nukes? If the Islamic should gain power

Markus

That is the sum of all fears.

[Skybird]

"The fact of the matter is the Iranians may get 2.6 kilograms of highly enriched uranium," Biden said. "The Pakistanis have hundreds, thousands of kilograms of highly enriched uranium." Then he asked: "What is the greatest threat to the United States of America: 2.6 kilograms of highly enriched uranium in Tehran or an out-of-control Pakistan? It's not close."
(...)
Notorious autocrats such as Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak have returned -- after some initial and short-lived concessions to democratic protocol -- to ruthlessly suppressing every form of opposition. Criticism from Washington has been muted at best. The current situation in Pakistan is once again revealing to the world America's strategic shortcomings when it comes to promoting democracy in the region.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...515647,00.html

"Autocrats have returned." Okay, you must not like it. But what is the alternative? Democratically allowing Islamists into power?

Better prefer the autocrats, then. The alternative we cannot afford. That maybe is not nice. It maybe also is not just. And maybe it is not fair also.

But it is realistic.

[Onkel Neal]

So what is happening in Pakistan?

Mock conflict? When did revolution and insurrection become wrestling?

[Skybird]

Pakistan is a mirror inside a mirror inside a mirror. In them, even looks can kill.

[Lurchi]

I still don't see a connection between free elections and a resulting islamist party government.

Those demonstrating attorneys and judges don't look like fundamentalists to me - more like well educated and therefore privileged citizens being pi$$ed by the fact that their constitution and right to vote was "suspended" for more than dubious reasons.

[Jimbuna]

I've never seen Imran Khan move as fast since he was last in the outfield during a Lords Test Match. (cricket to you heathens)

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Lurchi

I still don't see a connection between free elections and a resulting islamist party government.

Those demonstrating attorneys and judges don't look like fundamentalists to me - more like well educated and therefore privileged citizens being pi$$ed by the fact that their constitution and right to vote was "suspended" for more than dubious reasons.

That's what I've been thinking. Sure, there are sizeable factions of Islamic extremists in Pakistan, but I'm not sold that if they hold elections, it will turn into another Iran. Possible, but we'll have to take that risk, it's their country.

Latest news item, Musharraf vows elections will continue in January. Paging Florida state election officials, paging Florida state election officials, please bring your maginfying glasses as well.

[Dan D]

Law professor Andrew Hammel from Houston, Texas, who teaches American law to students in Germany, has received an email from a former colleague of his from Pakistan:
http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/germ...-from-pak.html

"... and take up the cause of the independence and restoration of the Pakistani judiciary at whatever level you can. It is important that Benazir Bhutto not been seen and heard as the main representative of the pro-democracy, secular minded civil society of Pakistan. The Pakistan Bar Council and the other lawyers’ associations are all united in opposing elections without the restoration of the judiciary. They must be heard. I will try and stay in touch though there are daily raids to pick up lawyers considered troublesome."

[Skybird]

You guys forget one thing. The head of their highest court who was battleing against Musharaf since years, and has been sacked one year ago, and was demanded back into power - is a known fundamentalist Muhammedan. He was demanded back into power by those lawyers and judges, who in the past have made very many sentences and calls in favour of islamic rules, and opposing Musharaf's "friendship" with the US. They may say "in the name of freedom and democracy", but what they really mean is "freedom as defined by Quranic law" and that is something totally different. and last but not least, this highly artificial creation the natiojn of Pakistan is - has been designed around and founded on Islamic principles, not Western or democratic ones.

When will shortsighted opportunism that does not lead beyond idealism and the immediate moment finally end? Have you guys learned nothing from the creeping mavement of Turkey towards fundamentalism, and the slow death of Kemalism? Egypt, anyone? Marocco? Algeria? The Palestinians? Iran? Indonesia? The raising of fundamentalism's ugly violent face everyhwere?

Are you really think that a push of any of these countries towards fundamentalism is being planned for and will be acchieved by just one election - the next one? And things are bright and safe if the next one will not show fundamentalists acchieving 55% of the votes immediately? Has nobody taken into account that a mere participation of fundamentlaists in law-making procedures is suffieint to pave the road for an ongoing Islmamization of a society? Look at turkey. Last but not least look at the deeply flawed US policy towards Pakistan for the past 35 years. Shortsightend opportunism, day to day living - no strategic realistic perspective. Where as our opponent thinks in centuries (now he plans in deacdes) in order to acchieve the strategic objective he wants to accheive - making the West it'S own, our nations and some of you people as well plan in months, years, an election term at best, and where your idealistic calls for "democracy in action" superficially have been met (in past years having STRENGHTENED fundamentalists, not weakening them in favour of democrats!) , you stop thinking, loose interest, and turn away, assuming that now everything is good.

but it is not you needing to face the longterm consequences of allowing fundamentlaists infleuncing laws and social life more and more through slowly improving their positions legally and democratically, but your children and children's children. Neither emotional calls nor calm arguments of reason, or hinting at historic examples and even recent political events worry you.

where neither reason nor emotion nor reflection makes people think beyond the immediate moment, it seems there is no remedy left. some of you mean it well, I'm sure. But you are well-meaning up to rejection of reality, trying to wish things for the better, assuming elections are a magic wand, and when you swing it, the fairy queen appears and all what is hard and ugly and unfriendly in the world, will just dissappear. This self-deception is what decides your fall, and in the end for many it is only an excuse not needing to raise and start a fight by their own vote, hand, action, deed. Phlagmatism it is called. So why should one even care anymore to defend you, since you even do not have the wish to be defended? If you want an islamic world, go ahead - pave islam the way by holding elections everywhere. that way, islam can legally grow in power and strength, with you by your own rules and laws being forbidden to oppose islam that way. Your own rules and procedures are being turned against you, you own constitutions prohibit you from self-defense. Here at the latest healthy reason would start to ask questions and analyse one's doubts. but you promise just to go on in the way that has brought us to this time and situation, and has helped to make Islam strong. More of the same, please! And when the pet you have feeded turns against you - and it will, I bet my lifetime's saving on that - and starts to bite, you will roll your eyes and look up to the sky and down to the ground, assuming you couldn't have known it. but you could have known it. You just didn't look far ahead enough in time - so the later outcome hits you by surprise.

Thats what is called "Blowback". at the time it hits you, it will be too late.

You think all this has nothing to do with Pakistan? And I am out of boundary of this thread?

Think twice.

[The WosMan]

I think the main thing here is if Pakistan does indeed turn into a situation similar to Iran back in the 1970s that we don't have a dryball president in office who doesn't do anything about it like Carter. The thing that really makes me worry is the fact that Pakistan is already a nuclear power. The world cannot afford to see Islamists take that country over. I for once agree with Skybird (holy hell) but I would rather take a dictator like Musharraf then watching an Ayatolla walk into power via elections. The Islamists are already master chess players and pros at using our own systems and ways against us.....this is one more step.

We have been trying to court the Islamists through diplomatic means for some time over there and trying to do it any way possible to avoid violence and putting pressure on Musharraf to do the same. This has failed as these folks only have a single minded ambition to get it and convert everyone to their way of thinking or die trying. Perhaps it is time we give them their wish. I hate to sound this way but deep down inside I can't help but think that what Musharraf needs to do is to round up the Islamists and make those folks disappear quietly. The only way to stop these people is to kill them.

[Jimbuna]

Islamists and nuclear weapons....one hell of a mixture, a recipe for disaster

[Onkel Neal]

ANALYSIS-Musharraf's wobbles fuel predictions of downfall

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by The WosMan

I hate to sound this way but deep down inside I can't help but think that what Musharraf needs to do is to round up the Islamists and make those folks disappear quietly. The only way to stop these people is to kill them.

Sounds like an instant reciupe for Making Things Worse