Should the US Navy move the fleet out of harm's way?

[geetrue]

The ships at sea have a fighting chance ... I'm not worried about them. Ships in port have always been a target from Cuba "Remember the Maine" to the USS Cole in Africa.

San Diego is ground zero in any modern warfare scenerio, but a terroist can attack at will in San Diego Bay with two to three nuclear carriers already berthed there now, not to mention the rest of the third fleet.

The US Navy has finally seen the light and moved their Point Loma/Ballast Point submarine flotilla to Hawaii and Guam ... Long Beach is no longer a base, San Francisco is just a port of call leaving Seattle and Bangor, Washington as the only other major ports on the west coast besides San Diego. Those two ports are a long way from the Pacific Ocean.

They could carve a sea port out of raw land in Alaska ... where no man has ever been before ... Safely secure the area using submarines, security checks for all family members and base employees of which most would be retired civilians or even the family members themselves.

Check all food, check all supplies, air lift everybody and everything in, house everyone in comfortable quarters, stay warm and prepare for WW III

Don't wait for a terroist attack to sink a modern warfare vessel ... be prepared for one now ...

I have always had a fear of turning on the television and seeing a US Navy nuclear carrier smoldering on her side in San Diego Bay.

Don't be afraid be ready ...

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Chock

I imagine that's exactly what a terrorist would like the US Navy to think, and I daresay the sailors on the USS Cole thought that five minutes before they were attacked.

Well that's true, but it didn't stop the IRA blowing up Lord Louis Mountbatten's boat slap bang in the middle of when the UK was on high alert to specific threats from that organisation, killing him and Baroness Brabourne among others, and on the same day also killing eighteen soldiers from the Parachute Regiment at Warrenpoint. This, in the same year that the INLA also blew up MP Airey Neave's car on the ramp coming out of Parliament, killing him too. All these being just a small selection of the bombings which took place that year in the UK, despite security measures and awareness of threats.

When the US Air Force can forget about some nuclear weapons slung under an aircraft and leave it sitting unguarded on the apron at a base for hours before anyone thought something was amiss, it's not a stretch to imagine that the security at Naval bases might have a few gaps in it. Complacency concerning enemies and potential enemies is just asking for it.

Chock

That is fair, but what is the equivelant to the IRA in the United States? The situation is not that volatile in the U.S. that you can draw a comparison. We had a couple of guys fly planes into buildings and a handful of botched plots, nothing else. A simple risk assessment makes me believe that relocated the fleets or keeping more ships at sea is not worth the cost; there is low probability of a successful terror attack (in the 15 or so years that OBL and al Qaeda have been active, they have committed only one successful terror attack on U.S. soil) and low impact (we could lose a destroyer a la Cole to conventional explosives, and a nuclear, chemical, or biological device might ruin a lot of people's day, but aren't all sailors and soldiers trained to survive NBC attacks? And what are the odds of those occuring?). I just can't see it being worth shifting personnel and infrastructure and dredging a new port in the middle of nowhere.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

personnaly i think ships are more at risk tied up in home port, at least when they are at sea they can move out of the way of an incoming threat like a motor boat full of explosives, you cant do that tied to a dock.

Whats more you need to have your forces spread out slightly what would happen if they moved all the pacific fleet to alaska and another country over ran hawai ? be falklands repeat.

whats more the wosman really need to take a reality check SS-N-19 and 22's are fully capible of putting a carrier out of action, and with the chinese and russians getting close along with the indians theres going to be some worrying problems to come.

Good points

[Chock]

Of course another problem is that even if it were tactically sound to pile all your ships in one place (Battleship Row anyone? and just across the water from the reborn Russian Air Force and Navy?), then the cost would be prohibitive to the US.

The United States is entering an economic downturn, owing to the continued outsourcing of manufacturing to Asia, and the continued importing of goods from China et al, which are flooding the country and devastating its indigenous industrial base. Couple that with the economic growth of China and Russia, and you have a Navy that cannot afford to keep pace and spend money on ambitious and vastly expensive undertakings such as a huge new Naval base.

The US military planners are already struggling to afford replacement equipment for all the Cold War stuff that is wearing out, and they are being told they must make do with far less numbers than they had previously had, in both men and materiel. And all this whilst being asked to fight two wars, plus maintain other commitments around the globe, all of which wears stuff out even quicker as less ships and aeroplanes do more work. Technological solutions cannot provide all the answers to these problems either. Granted, a shiny new F-35 may be able to conduct multi-role operations, but the five aircraft it replaces could be in five different places around the world, and as good as the F-35 may be, it can only be in one place at a time. Where, as noted, its airframe will be wearing out at five times the rate an older aircraft would have, because it will be doing a lot more work! Which means it will then cost even more money - money that the US simply does not have.

I'm sure the US Navy would love the kind of budget that would allow it to contemplate such possibilities as a massive shiny new Naval base, but it hasn't, so the question becomes academic really.

Chock

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

personnaly i think ships are more at risk tied up in home port, at least when they are at sea they can move out of the way of an incoming threat like a motor boat full of explosives, you cant do that tied to a dock.

Whats more you need to have your forces spread out slightly what would happen if they moved all the pacific fleet to alaska and another country over ran hawai ? be falklands repeat.

whats more the wosman really need to take a reality check SS-N-19 and 22's are fully capible of putting a carrier out of action, and with the chinese and russians getting close along with the indians theres going to be some worrying problems to come.

Well in all fairness to the 'poon its not designed for the same mission as the N-19 and N-22. It was designed for Anti-Sub work belive it or not. It was ment for P-3s to shoot at surfaced Russian subs back when they need to surface to fire their SLBMs.

The Harpoon has one advantage over the 19 and 22 in that it can be launched from many diffrent platforms most importantly from aircraft. I think the most any aircraft can carry is 1 or 2 N-22 while a simaler sized aircraft can carry 4+ Harpoons.

The US never had any reason to build weapons like the N-19 and N-22 because the Russians never had a huge fleet of advanced surface ships until the end of the cold war, which at that point the US Sub advantage negated them.

If the US built a ship along the same lines as a Russian Sov or Kirov at that time it probaly would have something like a couple of hundred Harpoons, four twin arm SAM launchers, three SH-2s and more ASROCs than you can shake a stick at. But we figure that a LA boat with a couple of dozen MK 48s would work much better.

[Kapitan]

In russia businesses are given a small tax relief if they sponsour ships in the navy, this is the big reason why they have now got borey alexander nevisky st petersburg and another one building plus another borey in build and a few other surface ships.

Ship building in russia and churning out numbers like these right now means its close to cold war builds, buisness contribute about 1/3rd of the navies buget which means the russians have 1/3rd more money to play with each year.

Last year they navy spent $4.3 billion its projected this year to have spend at least $5 billion, figures the USA can ill afford at the moment, with china ruining the american economy with its cheap and nasty imports the only two countries set to win here are russia with her oil and gas, and china with her plastic crappy products.

I do believe that earlier this year putin did annouce plans to regenerate the submarine base at gremikha, this would be a cost of what ive seen (i have been to gremikha and its really the PITS !) it would cost a good $50 million.

Inside 10 years russia has plans to out every cold war piece of equipment it has and re build, and its replaceing stuff at the rate of 2 to 1.

To compair america is building at the rate of 1 to 3, so is it no wonder why america asked for the 1000 ship navy, from its allies?

The current USN is a fleet of around 500 ships and submarines in total, current russian fleet is 366 in total, and the chinese fleet is around 300, us brits can just about manage our 140 ship navy.

One reason the USN transformed the 4 ohio class SSBN's is because the cost of maintaining thiem in thier SSBN role, they could have easily kept on and re modeld a few newer 688i's but what they have now in the new SSGN is a very good platform, that costs less.

The americans are second in SSBN count something they have not been since 1995, russia maintains 17 SSBN's and all are ready for sea (inc ones in refit), america has just 14.(incl ones in refit)

as it stands our enemy is not russia, its our own spending habbits last week the stock market too a huge slump the dollar finnished at $2.06 to £1 ive never seen it that high ever, the lowest i have ever seen was $1.48 to £1 to have that turn out in about 10 years is really shocking.

But why is the economy failing?

the west enforces a thing called healthy and safty, in england we cant take a ****e without confirming it with 3 managers and having the proper safty gear to make sure it plops down the pan correctly.
Now your wearing all that gear it will slow you down simple.

The government here says well you must have 4 weeks paid holiday a year minimum
Workers time off ! and paid !!!!!

We have a minimum wage system to make sure no one lives in or under the red line.
This can cause inflation as it has to rise each year.

so why are those things a problem?

China does not enforce safty gear for thier workers, which means they are not wearing body armour and safty helmets just to moniter computers, which means they will work a little faster.

They dont get paid holidays if anything most chinese will work a 16 hour day, the most any of us is 12 (unless your truck driving they maybe more)

china doesnt have the minimum wage system the worker is paid what the employer wants, it keeps inflation down productivity up and cheap labour means also cheaper goods at a faster rate.

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Well in all fairness to the 'poon its not designed for the same mission as the N-19 and N-22. It was designed for Anti-Sub work belive it or not. It was ment for P-3s to shoot at surfaced Russian subs back when they need to surface to fire their SLBMs.

The Harpoon has one advantage over the 19 and 22 in that it can be launched from many diffrent platforms most importantly from aircraft. I think the most any aircraft can carry is 1 or 2 N-22 while a simaler sized aircraft can carry 4+ Harpoons.

The US never had any reason to build weapons like the N-19 and N-22 because the Russians never had a huge fleet of advanced surface ships until the end of the cold war, which at that point the US Sub advantage negated them.

If the US built a ship along the same lines as a Russian Sov or Kirov at that time it probaly would have something like a couple of hundred Harpoons, four twin arm SAM launchers, three SH-2s and more ASROCs than you can shake a stick at. But we figure that a LA boat with a couple of dozen MK 48s would work much better.

Again that is very true why spend $100 million when you can spend just $1 ? if a 688i armed up with adcaps and TASM whats the need for a large battery?

Thats where the soviets went wrong they spent and spent and spent on multiple platforms, which ment there had to be experts in all platforms just to maintain them which ment cost.

if you notice the americans have one frigate class perry class, one destroyer class the burke class, one cruiser class: tico class, and they have numbers in each and they all are capible of doing either ASW ASuW or AAW missions.

The russians have the sovvys for ASM and AAW the uddys For ASW now for example if they put both designes together in a cruiser form, they would have one ship thats capible of doing everything rather than 2 ships capible of only bits and pieces.

It would cut down on the number of techs needed, the number of specialist dry docks, training costs would be down, and also less cost can mean a few more ships.

[sonar732]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

One reason the USN transformed the 4 ohio class SSBN's is because the cost of maintaining thiem in thier SSBN role, they could have easily kept on and re modeld a few newer 688i's but what they have now in the new SSGN is a very good platform, that costs less.

Actually, the main reason was because of the SALT treaty limited the number of Ohio class boats by four, and then the Clinton administration decided to limit it by four more boats and wanted to give them a new mission instead of scrapping them completely.

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

But why is the economy failing?

the west enforces a thing called healthy and safty, in england we cant take a ****e without confirming it with 3 managers and having the proper safty gear to make sure it plops down the pan correctly.
Now your wearing all that gear it will slow you down simple.

The government here says well you must have 4 weeks paid holiday a year minimum
Workers time off ! and paid !!!!!

We have a minimum wage system to make sure no one lives in or under the red line.
This can cause inflation as it has to rise each year.

so why are those things a problem?

China does not enforce safty gear for thier workers, which means they are not wearing body armour and safty helmets just to moniter computers, which means they will work a little faster.

They dont get paid holidays if anything most chinese will work a 16 hour day, the most any of us is 12 (unless your truck driving they maybe more)

china doesnt have the minimum wage system the worker is paid what the employer wants, it keeps inflation down productivity up and cheap labour means also cheaper goods at a faster rate.

And as a result we have shoddy goods from China with high-lead content paints and fatal submarine accidents from Russia during routine peace-time operations. I really don't think this is the way to go. There must be a balance between quality and quantity.

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by sonar732

Actually, the main reason was because of the SALT treaty limited the number of Ohio class boats by four, and then the Clinton administration decided to limit it by four more boats and wanted to give them a new mission instead of scrapping them completely.

This is true ...

The new SSGN's will be a weapon of choice someday. Controlled from deep in the mountains of Colorado by the way. I wonder who gives the final command to launch when the missiles aren't armed with nukes?

The president?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Again that is very true why spend $100 million when you can spend just $1 ? if a 688i armed up with adcaps and TASM whats the need for a large battery?

Thats where the soviets went wrong they spent and spent and spent on multiple platforms, which ment there had to be experts in all platforms just to maintain them which ment cost.

if you notice the americans have one frigate class perry class, one destroyer class the burke class, one cruiser class: tico class, and they have numbers in each and they all are capible of doing either ASW ASuW or AAW missions.

The russians have the sovvys for ASM and AAW the uddys For ASW now for example if they put both designes together in a cruiser form, they would have one ship thats capible of doing everything rather than 2 ships capible of only bits and pieces.

It would cut down on the number of techs needed, the number of specialist dry docks, training costs would be down, and also less cost can mean a few more ships.

Actually the US Navy had many classes of ship only recenlty has it cut down to one for each ship type. It was called High-Low, we had both High Capablity/High Cost ships and Low Capablity/Low Cost ships of each class. We had two Frigate Classes the Knox (High) and the OHP (Low), We had two Destroyer Classes Spruance (Low) and Burke (High), and numorous Cruiser class (Virginia, Californa, Truxtun, Belknap, Bainbridge, Leahy, and Longbeach). Bainbridge was a High Leahy, Belknap and Californa was a High Truxtun. With the Virginia they started to become a High only force.