Pope John Paul II Returns

[Penelope_Grey]

That is the whole point of religion and being religious its a leap of faith. Placing trust in someone or something else that you cannot quite see or cannot quite prove.

[STEED]

I think it's all rubbish, as all you got to do is look up a number of pictures and sooner or later you will stumble on one that looks Simula that is to say at a glance.

[Penelope_Grey]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

This has nothing to do with challenging a religion or its figures.

Then what was it to do with? Cause if it is for giggles, its not funny.

I have a Catholic background within my family, and even though I'm not a strict believer in the faiths, I find your comparison of what could be the Pope rather insulting, Catholics believe the pope to be a representative of God here on Earth. That is serious business, and this is people's beliefs you are taking the mick out of don't you appreciate?

You were quick to pounce on Kranz when he mentioned Jews though.

Originally Posted by Zayphod

It's fire - sure it wasn't the devil waving, getting ready for the END of TIMES?

Why would the devil wave to people and try to socialise? Doesn't really fit his MO...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Then what was it to do with?

The shape of the flame.

Cause if it is for giggles, its not funny.

Then don't laugh.

I have a Catholic background within my family, and even though I'm not a strict believer in the faiths, I find your comparison of what could be the Pope rather insulting,

Then be insulted, though that was not my intention.

Why are you responding only to me? Why don't you respond to STEED, who said "another wacky vision story"? Or to Skybird who called the level of credulity "scary"? Or to Zayphod's and Bookworm's sarcastic post?

I have zero Catholic background within my family and 100% Jewish background. If the flame looked more like Moses with the 10 commandments, I would dismiss it just the same.

Catholics believe the pope to be a representative of God here on Earth. That is serious business, and this is people's beliefs you are taking the mick out of don't you appreciate?

Does the Pope command that you must believe that this flame shape in the photo is the Pope? Do you really want to start googling for fire/flame/smoke images caught on camera that represent human figures? Did I even present an argument that the Pope is not what Catholics believe him to be? If this flame is nothing more than a coincidental shape, does it in any way prove or disprove any Catholic understandings of the Pope?

You were quick to pounce on Kranz when he mentioned Jews though.

I never "pounced" on Kranz. On the contrary, I stated my post has nothing to do with disputing anyone's religion. And my second post asked what he meant, which Skybird answered. So where did i "pounce", deary? Read carefully before going into a fit of fervent hyperventilation.

Try to shut the Jews up elsewhere folks. It won't work here. Too bad.

[STEED]

Ouch

I would like to say from time to time celebs turn up as well or world leaders and as I have already said it's all tosh, if anyone takes it as word well you need to have a sit down and have a long think. As for the religious ones that pop up my argument stands, come on it's a joke dismiss it and move on. I am amazed how many people believe this just like the Loch Ness Monster and so on.

Come on folks chill out.

PS: That's a request.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by STEED

Ouch

I am amazed how many people believe this just like the Loch Ness Monster and so on.

Come on folks chill out.

PS: That's a request.

The Loch Ness aint real?

[STEED]

Click my Tiswas link and chill out for a minute. :rotfl:

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

That is the whole point of religion and being religious its a leap of faith. Placing trust in someone or something else that you cannot quite see or cannot quite prove.

And why do you think that is a virtue, instead of a delusion? Problem is that you cannot prove, never, that something does not exist. To turn that into an argument why it should be reasonable to assume that something does exist, is a bit too much, I think. You cannot prove there are ponk elephants living in a deep cave below the arctic ice. But why believe that they do live there?

the moral and education I have seen in some individuals I met, has not come from to their religous views and attitudes, but has emerged from within themselves. It did not reflect the value of their religion, but the value of their own inner essence. Whereas the existence of theistic religions has caused nothing but violence, hate, intolerance, limiting of the functions our brain is capable of, trying to poison our perception of reality, our ability to learn; religion led to war, inquisition, sharia, for centuries and millenias. Theistic religions never have led a single man into an imgained paradise - all they do is bringing out the worst in us. Without theistic religions - no Taleban, no al Quaeda. No Inquisition. No 30-years-war and centuries of other religiously motivated wars in europe, no Islamic civil war. Let's not forget that the age of enlightenment has been the time and power that forced the churches to give up their iron grab for society and people's minds. but in our present time, we try harder again to even abuse the weakest and youngest of ours to bend their minds again to hear-say and educating them not to ask analytical and critical questions: our children. To educate them to become belivers when it is still beyond them to analyse these things themselves and make a decision dpeending on their results is nothing but abuse of children, imo (and prominent authors) opion. It is high time that the voice of reason makes it self heared much louder again - before Christian and islamic and Jewish beoliefs of god-like psychopaths kills us all in one final cataclysm that in an act of self-fulfilling prohecy and logic-in-cycles is oracled by some from man-made scriptures.

I do not see that the Jesus of the gospels (that were put together not until 70-140 years after his death, so they do not represent any authentic report about him) has taught about these believing-is-a-virtue-things, and these old concepts of simple blind believing hear-say and fairy-tales. Instead he led the way to directly experiencing the reality, and taking responsibility for one's life. This is what makes him more comparable to a Zen master than to a "holy man" ursurpated by a politcal organisation called "church". I still wait for the first thing being shown to me that could qualify for being seen as "holy". He choosed his path not in our place, but for our sake, and he repeatedly said that nobody of us is saved from doing like him ourselves. If he really would have meant the same belief-concepts and the same conception of a god like all the other lunatics in the bible, he just would have been as insane as them, and nopt worth to be remembered.

In the end, believing is no virtue, but expression of lacking knowledge and understanding of the cosmos that surrounds us. Due to that uncertainty, man has a desire to beolueve he has a role, a place in this chaos that apprantly surrounds us, and a state of constant uncertainty is hard to bear for us, and makes us desparate. But believing is for children nevertheless, and they find comfort in believing the fairy tale that tells them they are safe and guarded. when we grow up, we do not wish to depend un such infantile explanations anymore - so we think, before starting to beloieve in a god whose nonexistance has not been proven - which is the argument for us why it is the right thing for some of us to take his presence as granted. That's like assuming that there is a bridge of invisible glas outside the window in the 10th floor, and becasue nobody knocked on the door and proved to us that it is not there, makes us stepping out the window and wanting to cross the street the easy way without needing to climb all the chairs in the house on the other side. Here, scriptures come into play: they easy the burden of needing to think, they offer all answers to all questions imgainable, and if there are new questions, it is tempting to ignore them, even to prevent them, in order to not needing to take the effort and think ourselves. The conflict between fundamental christians and creationists on the one hand, and scientist and defenders of evolution theory on the other hand is a good example.

we may have a craving for beoieving, we may wish to beoieve in something. But a junkey also is craving for a jo0int, and an alcoholic is craving for alcohol. This does not turn metabolic poisons into gods. In the end, our desire to believe in something that gives us an image of being secure in a constantly changing universe full of uncertain variables and uncertainties, is simply this: our desire, our wish, or better: our choice, our decision. Nothing in all that turns our decision into an evidence for gods existing.

I consider that do be infantile, and due to the enormous tools of potential self-destruction avaulable to us I consider it to be vital that we finally move beyoind this childish stadium. for that reason I reject to respect theistic beliefs, and do not pay them any respect at all: it is suicidal in this modern world, and will lead to the final last war or act of self-destruction sooner or later - all in the name of God and his religion, of course.

Let's end this madness - before it ends us.

[The Avon Lady]

Pareidolia.

Yeh. Dats de woyd!

[Chock]

It's obviously not JP2 if you look closely...



Viva Catholicism Baby!

Chock

[Zepheron]

Return of the king

[STEED]

I rest my case.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2007/10/the-daily-mail.html

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Pareidolia.

Thanks, I wanted to refer to that thing myself, but was unable to come up with the correct term.

[kranz]

Skybird-my statement had a meaning-probably you didn't want to understand it-on the contrary to your's my statement wasn't based on Wikipedia.I wrote several essays etc concerning this matter based on books(so no wikipedia).I agree-not all jews shoed this kind of attitude(e.g the sonderkomando rebel)but most of them.Why I wrote it? Because I wanted to show The Avon Lady that insulting someone's beliefs may result in a counterstrike aimed at her nation and religion.As I said before I don't believe that the Pope could be seen but so I wasn't insulted but I had to show that so called "giggles" in this kind of case are at the lowest level.Once again for Skybird-this Frankl is "a great example".Indeed.I'm curious why you haven't mentioned David Irving-he was also writting about Holocaust.But-choising a jew as a authority was really funny.Again The Avon Lady-
"Try to shut the Jews up elsewhere folks. It won't work here. Too bad." Do you think that jews are so important and everybody wants to shut them up?Are you joking?Probably you believe in some international treason or sth like this.Your intention-when showing this rubber guy- was clear and please don't try to cheat us.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And why do you think that is a virtue, instead of a delusion? Problem is that you cannot prove, never, that something does not exist. To turn that into an argument why it should be reasonable to assume that something does exist, is a bit too much, I think. You cannot prove there are ponk elephants living in a deep cave below the arctic ice. But why believe that they do live there?

the moral and education I have seen in some individuals I met, has not come from to their religous views and attitudes, but has emerged from within themselves. It did not reflect the value of their religion, but the value of their own inner essence. Whereas the existence of theistic religions has caused nothing but violence, hate, intolerance, limiting of the functions our brain is capable of, trying to poison our perception of reality, our ability to learn; religion led to war, inquisition, sharia, for centuries and millenias. Theistic religions never have led a single man into an imgained paradise - all they do is bringing out the worst in us. Without theistic religions - no Taleban, no al Quaeda. No Inquisition. No 30-years-war and centuries of other religiously motivated wars in europe, no Islamic civil war. Let's not forget that the age of enlightenment has been the time and power that forced the churches to give up their iron grab for society and people's minds. but in our present time, we try harder again to even abuse the weakest and youngest of ours to bend their minds again to hear-say and educating them not to ask analytical and critical questions: our children. To educate them to become belivers when it is still beyond them to analyse these things themselves and make a decision dpeending on their results is nothing but abuse of children, imo (and prominent authors) opion. It is high time that the voice of reason makes it self heared much louder again - before Christian and islamic and Jewish beoliefs of god-like psychopaths kills us all in one final cataclysm that in an act of self-fulfilling prohecy and logic-in-cycles is oracled by some from man-made scriptures.

I do not see that the Jesus of the gospels (that were put together not until 70-140 years after his death, so they do not represent any authentic report about him) has taught about these believing-is-a-virtue-things, and these old concepts of simple blind believing hear-say and fairy-tales. Instead he led the way to directly experiencing the reality, and taking responsibility for one's life. This is what makes him more comparable to a Zen master than to a "holy man" ursurpated by a politcal organisation called "church". I still wait for the first thing being shown to me that could qualify for being seen as "holy". He choosed his path not in our place, but for our sake, and he repeatedly said that nobody of us is saved from doing like him ourselves. If he really would have meant the same belief-concepts and the same conception of a god like all the other lunatics in the bible, he just would have been as insane as them, and nopt worth to be remembered.

In the end, believing is no virtue, but expression of lacking knowledge and understanding of the cosmos that surrounds us. Due to that uncertainty, man has a desire to beolueve he has a role, a place in this chaos that apprantly surrounds us, and a state of constant uncertainty is hard to bear for us, and makes us desparate. But believing is for children nevertheless, and they find comfort in believing the fairy tale that tells them they are safe and guarded. when we grow up, we do not wish to depend un such infantile explanations anymore - so we think, before starting to beloieve in a god whose nonexistance has not been proven - which is the argument for us why it is the right thing for some of us to take his presence as granted. That's like assuming that there is a bridge of invisible glas outside the window in the 10th floor, and becasue nobody knocked on the door and proved to us that it is not there, makes us stepping out the window and wanting to cross the street the easy way without needing to climb all the chairs in the house on the other side. Here, scriptures come into play: they easy the burden of needing to think, they offer all answers to all questions imgainable, and if there are new questions, it is tempting to ignore them, even to prevent them, in order to not needing to take the effort and think ourselves. The conflict between fundamental christians and creationists on the one hand, and scientist and defenders of evolution theory on the other hand is a good example.

we may have a craving for beoieving, we may wish to beoieve in something. But a junkey also is craving for a jo0int, and an alcoholic is craving for alcohol. This does not turn metabolic poisons into gods. In the end, our desire to believe in something that gives us an image of being secure in a constantly changing universe full of uncertain variables and uncertainties, is simply this: our desire, our wish, or better: our choice, our decision. Nothing in all that turns our decision into an evidence for gods existing.

I consider that do be infantile, and due to the enormous tools of potential self-destruction avaulable to us I consider it to be vital that we finally move beyoind this childish stadium. for that reason I reject to respect theistic beliefs, and do not pay them any respect at all: it is suicidal in this modern world, and will lead to the final last war or act of self-destruction sooner or later - all in the name of God and his religion, of course.

Let's end this madness - before it ends us.

In the eyes of a non believer of cause its madness cause no explanation is good enough for you to believe. Now in the eyes of a believer what you just wrote is utter nonsense, just plain dribble.


I just watched a vid on the net The Six Billion Experiment - http://tinyurl.com/22fuyv

although interesting, and alot of what they said was new to me but then their reason why they are doing it gets to me. They built a machine that will help them to see back in time to the Big Bang cause they want to know why, how it was created, how did it come round where did it come from where did WE come from lol Get the picture. The answer is on page one of the Bible Simple. Yet these scientist will be banging their heads forever.

As for Dreams, Visions and even Popes showing up in fires, it could be all true... The last days meaning years there will be strange things in the sky, ppl will have visions and sights will be recorded never before seen. Then 10 kingdoms will fall before that great day....

The ten kingdoms today are

Kingdom 1: Canada and the United States of America
Kingdom 2: European Union - Western Europe
Kingdom 3: Japan
Kingdom 4: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Israel and Pacific Islands
Kingdom 5: Eastern Europe
Kingdom 6: Latin America - Mexico, Central and South America
Kingdom 7: North Africa and the Middle East (Moslems)
Kingdom 8: Central Africa
Kingdom 9: South and Southeast Asia
Kingdom 10: Central Asia

Revelation 17:12, "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."
Daniel 2:44-45, "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

Or maybe Daniel was just a Jewish lad high on Nutmeg? Where he just started having drug induced visions? I dont think so, but have no doubt its been said.

And Avon Lady stop using the poor me blame the Jews symdrome. We are not trying to chase the Jews away! Your a magnet to your own undoing. If one of us makes fun of Jews its like we are blardy anti semite. Rubbish!

Edit: wrong link, correct one about Bigbang is fixed