Ken Burns' -THE WAR on PBS

[tater]

Well, it was FDR's war, so they can forgive anything, even internment camps

Actually, then specifically mentioned almost no one spoke out about the camps. Guess they didn't want to spoil the negative view of J. Edgar Hoover by mentioning he was against it from the start.

tater

[Subnuts]

[Nudges everyone in this thread in the ribs with my elbow]


Psstt...guys...read Shattered Sword. It'll totally, like, blow your mind! :rotfl:

[tater]

^^^ a must read book.

Another good set would be the First Team books by Lundstrom if you are into nitty gritty unit histories and the air war.

tater

[Skyhawk]

No doubt it would have been a logistical nightmare for Japan to say the least. Doesn't mean that the idea as presented is clueless though, it just means that the Japanese would have been clueless (given the logistical realities) to pursue such a course.

Myself, well I just wouldn't presume to know more about Japanese intentions at the time than the Japanese leaders did. I wouldn't have predicted Hitler's intent to try and exterminate an entire people on the scale he did either (hate, stereotyping, and bigotry of that magnitude are far beyond my reasoning), but it did happen. The question here is about intentions, not historical fact.

Nope, you can't believe everything you see on tv. But to throw a blanket over all PBS programming and treat it as a joke based on a single historical proposition from one show might be considered shortsighted, by some, to say the least.

I respect everyone's right to accept or reject anyone else's ideas, and that too, is a two-edged sword that we ALL must deal with.

[tater]

It's not about the japanese leaders, it's not about intentions, it's about Ken Burns. The documentary is CLUELESS. The japanese DID NOT HAVE SUCH PLANS. Sure, they might have done this or that, and it might have worked, but the documentary claimed that this was the PLAN for their Midway operation. It absolutely wasn't part of the plan for Midway, not at all, not even a little.

So stating as fact that the Midway operation had the threefold goals of:

1. Defeating the US fleet (true)

2. Invading Hawaii (no plans existed, it wasn't more than idle talk over sake back in Tokyo, they never took the idea very seriously)

3. Holding the population of Hawaii as a bargaining card (presumes #2)

Is absurd.

The Midway planning did not, as a matter of fact, include ANY plans for further action against Hawaii. Therefore any statements that the Japanese intent at Midway was to get ready to secure Hawaii is flat out wrong. Wasn't even on the radar.


tater

[ussvincennes]

Well let's go right to the facts out of the Japanese history books.

From the book, "The End of the Imperial Japanese Navy", by Masanori Ito (1956), translated from the original Japanese. (Masanori Ito was one of Japan's leading military commentators, and a personal friend of Admiral Yamamoto).

"Army leaders in Japan felt that the United States could be easily defeated....their hope was that Japan might quickly achieve such overwhelming successes that the United States would accept a compromise peace. The question then remained as to where the battle should be fought."

Midway (and the fake thrust at the Aleutians) became the final target.

IJN Naval Order #18, issued by Imperial General Headquarters, May 5, 1942. It directed Commander in Chief, Combined Fleet to:

"Invade and occupy Midway Island and key points in the western Aleutians in cooperation with the Army, in order to prevent enemy task forces from making attacks against the homeland. Destroy all enemy forces that may oppose the invasion."

The Army-Navy Central Agreement, issued at the same time, stated the Navy's tactical objective was to:

"Attack Midway Island and destroy the enemy's land-based air forces prior to the invasion, and support the landing operations with the main strength of the Combined Fleet."

Remember, Doolittle's raid on Tokyo had just occurred a month earlier (18 April, 1942). No mention is made (from the Army's directive standpoint) of engaging the American fleet.

Masanori Ito goes on....

"According to these directives, the primary objective was the seizure and occupation of Midway Island. But in Admiral Yamamoto's mind, the main (ultimate) goal was to lure the enemy fleet into a decisive surface battle." (meaning after the occupation of Midway, as they believed that the U.S. would not tolerate occupation of their soil east of the 180th meridian, and by occupying Midway, this would certainly lure the U.S. fleet into the final battle of annihilation. Also, as the Combined Fleet approached Midway, Task Force Commander Nagumo believed that no American carriers were anywhere near Midway. He was determined to proceed with the occupation order, according to Ito.)

There is probably some truth to the idea that the Japanese Army General Staff thought that by occupying Midway that the United States might be forced into a compromised peace due to their "drunk on victory" thinking at the time. Of course, the U.S. would never have agreed to that. Hell, the Japanese of 1942 had some goofy ideas, as we did. They believed that the blue-eyed American sailor was no match for the dark-eyed Japanese sailor in night vision, so they trained their Navy in night attacks. Go figure. (hehe, we also believed that all Japanese were near-sighted and wore glasses.)

--uss vincennes

[Skyhawk]

I just saw the portion of the first episode again that deals with Midway. Almost verbatum:

"The Japanese hoped to lure out the American fleet, destroy them, take the island, then take Hawaii and sue for peace".

The term "hostage" is not even used. They NEVER state in the show that the Midway planning included all of those goals. In fact, the show conveyed the implication that rather than to take and hold any islands long term, the ultimate goal of the plan was to get some leverage on the American psyche and as a result not have the U.S. as an active enemy in the Pacific theater.

Again, I wouldn't presume to know the intentions or "plans" of the Japanese leadership at the time.

If,

it is wrong or impossible for the producers of the show to KNOW what the Japanese plan was (no matter how well their proposition fits in with historical fact: The Japanese did attack the fleet at PH, the Japanese were attempting to draw out the rest of the fleet at Midway when they were "caught"),

Then,

how is it right or possible for anyone else to KNOW what the Japanese plan was?

They can't prove their proposition, it just makes historical sense. But it can't be proved wrong either. How it can be known what they were talking about over their sake back in Tokyo let alone what the real plan was is beyond me. Rhetoric sounds good but is just that, nothing of substance.

The documentary is making a logical historical proposition based on facts, on the other hand we have a differing opinion based on assumptions (it wasn't included in the Midway planning therefore it can't BE, period). Show me the facts that absolutely prove the Japanese had no intention of invading Hawaii. So far the producer's of the show have the attack at PH and a large portion of the Japanese Pacific Fleet sitting off the coast of Midway on their side of the leger. Show me something that exists to make your point. Don't talk about what the program's producers don't know, because they can't prove it! The whole other side of this debate is based on precisely, and only that.

Nope, still not persuaded by an arguement that doesn't exist. :hmm:

EDIT Thank you ussvincennes for adding to the discussion. I am definitely inclined to come to the same conclusions as the producers of the show given the facts you present in addition to what's already been stated. The IJN Naval Order #18 definitely does speak to the mindset and intentions of the Japanese leadership as regards this discussion.

[tater]

That's not almost verbatim at all. I had it tivoed last night (just buffer, didn't save) and I played it back 3 times before I typed.

tater

[tater]

The Japanese had hoped to smash what was left of the Pacific fleet, take Hawaii, hold its people hostage and force the United States to sue for peace.

Verbatim.

tater

[Skyhawk]

I stand corrected, excuse me. This makes my position wrong how? :hmm:

EDIT: Only serves to show how a person only hears/thinks what they want to when running on assumptions (Completely my bad as I assumed I was recalling that line from the program correctly). Lastly, why is it more important to prove me wrong on this count rather than to respond to the proof offered by ussvincennes?

Just because a person refuses to acknowledge something doesn't mean that it ceases to exist.

[tater]

In context in the show, they were discussing the jap aims at Midway. It was 100% clear that they were talking about japanese aims for the Midway operation.

The japanese NEVER planned to invade Hawaii. That is fact, no plans drawn up, wasn't part of the plan, didn't happen. Hawaii was in no way related to the Midway operation past the fact that they imagined it would be X days before they could expect a response by the USN (travel time from PH to Midway). It doesn't make sense just because we might say "it makes sense to invade Hawaii." Had it made sense to the IJN, they would have done it in December, or at least planned for its eventuality. They did neither.

That makes the "take hawaii" and "hold people" parts somewhat silly, no?



tater

[tater]

To be clear:

As an attempt at history, speculation stated as fact doesn't cut it. I've read my fair share (more than my fair share?) of books on the IJN and Midway. NONE suggests the japanese wished (or thought they could) to take Hawaii, either in general, and certainly not related to Midway.

None.

So where does their definitive statement as to japanese intentions come from, exactly?

Had the wording been: "The Japanese had hoped to smash what was left of the Pacific fleet at Midway when they sortied to protect the valuable base. A success at Midway might have encouraged them to plan to take Hawaii, hold its people hostage and force the United States to sue for peace." We'd not have an argument.

tater

[FAdmiral]

We can read about history, see it on TV docs, and discuss the facts & what ifs.
BUT playing it out in "War in the Pacific" really opens up all possibilities. I have the
Japanese AI set for historical and before I go any further, I will say that the
ultimate goal was to get the needed resources for Japanese industry to keep the
war machine running. I took back Wake Island from the AI because the logistics
in the AI holding onto it was a nightmare. (too many resources used doing it)
LOGISTICS and SUPPLY must be maintained at all times or your forces just die
on the vine. This game REALLY teaches that very HARD fact....

JIM

[ussvincennes]

Interesting discussion guys.

I too can't recall ever reading of Japanese plans to attack and occupy Hawaii beyond Midway. Although the primary directive was to invade and occupy Midway, the underlying "carrot" was to lure the U.S. fleet into annihilation. Who knows what would have happened after that? That part may well be conjecture.

On other fronts, the Japanese were very busy and presently occupied to the maxx, with the idea of cutting off Australia by infiltration of the Solomons. They were spread too thin as it was. I don't think they could have invaded Hawaii and made it stick. I would love to know the basis of the assertion in the PBS show.

--uss vincennes

[Skyhawk]

@ Tater: To be clear, I view this thread as an intellectually stimulating discussion. Not an arguement. Before I go on, let me go OT for a second and thank you for your contribution to the Trigger Maru Mod. I wouldn't be using SH4 without it.

To continue:

Earlier I wrote something to the effect that "you can't believe everything you see on tv", and I meant it. Hell, sometimes you can't even believe what you believe you have seen on tv! Do I think that the program was solidly based on fact with the "Midway statement? Nope, no way, no how.

Do I think the statement is clueless? Nope, no way, no how.


"I too can't recall ever reading of Japanese plans to attack and occupy Hawaii beyond Midway. Although the primary directive was to invade and occupy Midway, the underlying "carrot" was to lure the U.S. fleet into annihilation. Who knows what would have happened after that? That part may well be conjecture."

- ussvincennes -

Exactly the point I have been trying to make all along. "Who knows what would have happened after that?" NOBODY. Therefore it is wrong for the program to have represented it's "Midway statement" as if it were a generally well known historical fact rather than the conjecture that it is.

On the other hand, since it is entirely conjecture to say one way or the other, who is to say what would have happened if we had not caught the Japanese off of Midway and their best case scenario had been allowed to play out? Clearly, as per IJN Order #18 they had ideas about what they might do IF they could. Further, the fact that there was at least a very substantial attempt to complete the first part of the "Midway statement" lends some air of truth to it. Doesn't prove it mind you, but it gives it a hint of credibility imho.

Bottom line. The "Midway statement" was not historically correct and should not have been represented as such. But, the "Midway statement" didn't come out of left field either, that would be the clueless we are talking about. IJN Order #18 didn't originate on the writer's desks back at PBS. When you put that together with the attack at PH and the known Japanese plan for Midway, well it may be improbable, but it's not entirely clueless to think that the Japanese would have occupied Midway and Hawaii if they could have (which I agree they couldn't have done for much more than a heartbeat, and at great detriment to the rest of their Pacific theater plans and operations).

So i agree that it is silly for them to have represented this as a fact, but I don't agree that it is silly or clueless to think the Japanese would have occupied Midway and the rest of the Hawaiin Islands if they could have, which is more or less the same idea as the one represented in the "Midway statement".

Just my .02, thanks to all who have participated in this thread with thoughts relating to the topic at hand.

As far as PBS being the joke that some would have others think it to be . . .

Well, all I can say is watch VH1 and tune into "Flava of Luv", now that is just one shining example of hundreds of U.S. television/cable networks and programs that define and give new meaning to the term clueless. Point being, there are much better examples to poke fun at. Get some real ammunition in the chamber.

Happy Hunting Gents