If GWX had been the original release of SH3... - Page 2

GlobalExplorer · 08-29-07, 02:15 PM

I still believe that SHIII loading times are caused by stupid software design and rush during the final build.

During the time when I did mods I found that a lot of SHIII's data files were really messy design, 80s style. Look at the crew files which are completely unintelligible. If the code for loading data has the same primitive design, its no suprise that it works so ineffective.

It also strikes me as rather odd that every time you start SHIII, the whole game data is loaded. The same happens when you go into the museum. This must be indication that the programmers chose the so called "eager" approach, where the app -instantly- loads all available data into memory. Surprisingly this is usually less effective than a "lazy" approach, where you just load objects when they are needed. It looks like they had problems to decouple things to initialize just the necessary parts, so somebody said "what the heck then just let it load everything everytime".

And concerning GWX system requirements, it runs fine on my old system - SHIV does not. I could not point out a single thing where the GWX team did something that would unnecessaryly cost performance.

bigboywooly · 08-29-07, 02:52 PM

Aye
IMHO the only reason SH4 generates faster loading times with basically the SH3 engine is using dds over TGA and splitting the campaign files into areas and years

ie not loading everything campaign at once

JScones · 08-30-07, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

IMHO the only reason SH4 generates faster loading times with basically the SH3 engine is using dds over TGA and splitting the campaign files into areas and years

ie not loading everything campaign at once

Yes, appears the devs took on board some of SH3's archilles heals. Allowing nation specific skins without the need to duplicate models was an improvement. There were a few other model improvements which result in more optimised file "sharing". From one of the devs... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...00&postcount=3 (as an aside I must admit to a bit of perplexion re the reference to GWX, when GWX is built on SH3's flaky approach to begin with. Perhaps it was easier to swallow "bye bye long loading times of GWX" rather than "bye bye long loading times caused by inefficient design of SH3"?).

Oddly though I've noticed some guys comment on 15 MINUTE save game load times... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=580112 and http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121204 !

kiwi_2005 · 08-30-07, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caseck

Can you imagine how well that game would have sold?

That struck me today while I was downloading 1.03 in anticipation for 1.04...

Can you imagine?

Sorry, just occurred to me.

I dont think it would of made much of a difference, us hardcore subsimmers would be over the moon but the majority of gamers would of just thought. Fark this game is hard:rotfl:
Subsims like SH3 & 4 work both ways some love the easy original gameplay, others want it more realistic. Was on a forum the other day and came across a SH3 thread which was kinda odd as sub games are rarely mention, I notice noone has heard of GWX - whats GWX??? ahh its an addon so i pointed them in the right direction where to read more about it. Yet some question me why would i want to play SH3 with a mod as such when sh3 aint even broken? I gave up trying to explain and thought whats the point they're happy with SH3 Stock version 1.0

Kpt. Lehmann · 08-30-07, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

From one of the devs... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...00&postcount=3 (as an aside I must admit to a bit of perplexion re the reference to GWX, when GWX is built on SH3's flaky approach to begin with. Perhaps it was easier to swallow "bye bye long loading times of GWX" rather than "bye bye long loading times caused by inefficient design of SH3"?).

Well, that was rather nice that one of the SH3 devs to blame us for a problem resulting from their design.

This is especially wonderful of them considering they incorporated elements of GWX into SH4. (Why else would Moltenort be on the SH4 map? It is set in the Pacific theater is it not?)

Until now, I've always been sympathetic to them and have felt rotten every time I/one of us mentioned "the limitations of SH3." Personally, I've tried to avoid saying as much... and have avoided all the complaining about SH3/Sh4's shortcomings out of respect for the challenges they faced.

Well, I gotta say that I think it may reflect their attitude towards modders as "hackers" and maybe even the end-users as cattle. Maybe they see dealing with the Subsim community as a necessary evil.

I know that's a lot of "maybe's" but I tell ya what... it is this community that will determine their credibility when it comes down to it. You can't just pour some stuff on a disk and say, "POOF!!! Looky!!! I made a WWII submarine simulator! Look how IMMERSIVE it is!!!"

Really funny stuff coming from the guys who STILL have all of the propellors on ALL seagoing craft and submarines pulling/rotating BACKWARDS while travelling FORWARDS... and got PAID to make them work that way!!!

Well, I better stop before I am not able to do so. I'm sure they put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us.

<Zips up Nomex suit... pulls out cigarette>

HunterICX · 08-30-07, 05:55 AM

if GWX was the official release for SH3?

Well, in that case Kpt.Lehmann would be rich :rotfl: ........

lucky ba....

Kpt. Lehmann · 08-30-07, 06:22 AM

I doubt it.

Very likely the financing company would get the largest bite, and I am only one guy on a team of developers.

Woof1701 · 08-30-07, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

[
Oddly though I've noticed some guys comment on 15 MINUTE save game load times... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=580112 and http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121204 !

I have safe game loading times between 5-10 minutes myself. So I'm not surprised since my machine is not exactly up to date but also not ancient.

(AMD XP 3000+ with 1,5 GB DDR1-Ram and 7200rpm ATA hard disks, NVidia 6600 GT graphics card.)

onelifecrisis · 08-30-07, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Regarding the 16km sensor fix that you refer to... the need for it is questionable at best. It was constructed based on a strong opinon. (An opinion I respect, but do not subscribe to.)

Damn, is that right? It's so hard to work out what fixes what and what breaks what. My opinions on this were based largely on extensive posting on the subject by Rubini, but now I'm confused...

GlobalExplorer · 08-30-07, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Aye
IMHO the only reason SH4 generates faster loading times with basically the SH3 engine is using dds over TGA and splitting the campaign files into areas and years

ie not loading everything campaign at once

If that is the case the SHIII times could be reduced by the same amount. A couple of months ago I started a thread about how it could be done. Its just that atm I dont feel like writing the required tool and tbh I'm not ready for the flak it would take for its eventual misuse

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106686

bigboywooly · 08-30-07, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Aye
IMHO the only reason SH4 generates faster loading times with basically the SH3 engine is using dds over TGA and splitting the campaign files into areas and years

ie not loading everything campaign at once

If that is the case the SHIII times could be reduced by the same amount. A couple of months ago I started a thread about how it could be done. Its just that atm I dont feel like writing the required tool and tbh I'm not ready for the flak it would take for its eventual misuse

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106686

Not too sure you could seperate the campaign files at this stage

And it would rely on ppl remembering to change the files
lol

Not guaranteed at all that one

GlobalExplorer · 08-30-07, 01:19 PM

Yes thats the problem.

08-29-07, 02:15 PM	#16
GlobalExplorer Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Berlin Posts: 2,015 Downloads: 165 Uploads: 0	I still believe that SHIII loading times are caused by stupid software design and rush during the final build. During the time when I did mods I found that a lot of SHIII's data files were really messy design, 80s style. Look at the crew files which are completely unintelligible. If the code for loading data has the same primitive design, its no suprise that it works so ineffective. It also strikes me as rather odd that every time you start SHIII, the whole game data is loaded. The same happens when you go into the museum. This must be indication that the programmers chose the so called "eager" approach, where the app -instantly- loads all available data into memory. Surprisingly this is usually less effective than a "lazy" approach, where you just load objects when they are needed. It looks like they had problems to decouple things to initialize just the necessary parts, so somebody said "what the heck then just let it load everything everytime". And concerning GWX system requirements, it runs fine on my old system - SHIV does not. I could not point out a single thing where the GWX team did something that would unnecessaryly cost performance. __________________

08-29-07, 02:52 PM	#17
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Aye IMHO the only reason SH4 generates faster loading times with basically the SH3 engine is using dds over TGA and splitting the campaign files into areas and years ie not loading everything campaign at once __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

08-30-07, 05:55 AM	#21
HunterICX Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2006 Location: Malaga, España Posts: 10,750 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	if GWX was the official release for SH3? Well, in that case Kpt.Lehmann would be rich :rotfl: ........ lucky ba.... __________________

08-30-07, 06:22 AM	#22
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,996 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	I doubt it. Very likely the financing company would get the largest bite, and I am only one guy on a team of developers. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

08-30-07, 01:19 PM	#27
GlobalExplorer Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Berlin Posts: 2,015 Downloads: 165 Uploads: 0	Yes thats the problem. __________________