attack tactics

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by amurph182

that's because the Contact Influence setting is not "contact-influence" but "contact/influence"...as in it will either explode on "contact" or via the magnetic "influence" trigger.

I may be incorrect, but my reading seems to indicate that selecting a trigger was not as simple as flipping a switch in real life. From what I can recall, all of the torps had the magnetic triggers installed, and that was how they were fired. To disable the magnetic trigger the torpedomen had to take the thing apart and doing so was forbidden by the Navy for quite some time. A few enterprising skippers disabled them anyway and were much more successful with their attacks. They would of course not report that they had disabled them and would have any unused torpedos repaired on the way home. Ironically, their success was actually seen as proof that the magnetic exploders worked since they were afraid to be honest about violating orders.

I have read much the same! Hell, if I was the skipper I would have told the torpedomen to change the exploder. I'm not risking 70 mens lives over a 10 dollar magnetic exploder.

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Tater has a point, and wonder if this can be modded in. The skippers were ordered to use the magnetic exploders. Perhaps a mod that will only allow magnetic to be used until the date that Lockwood said to stop using them and use impact.

the mod would have to force you to set the torps to run deep, as the "contact influence" setting allows for detonation upon contact and not just magnetic influence. As it is, the only thing the switch in the game does is disable the magnetic exploder (IF the switch actually works, which seems to be debatable). So even if the switch is disabled in a mod or doesn't work to begin with, you can still run the torps into the target as opposed to under it to avoid some of the problems with the magnetic exploder. The real life exploder had a contact trigger as well (IIRC), so it would be unrealistic to disable this in game, but it would force you to aim for magnetic shots if you could do this.

The problems of the Mk14 were solved in this order:
1) running deeper than set
2) magnetic exploder either not working at all or causing premature detonation
3) contact exploder not working when hitting the targets in the 90-degree range because of a weak firing pin.

So the mod you suggest would need to have, essentially, four different versions of the Mk14:
1) an early war model where the contact exploder is either completely disabled or strongly gimped to either force or encourage you to aim under the hull, along with a random depth error between 10 and 25 feet and a magnetic exploder with X% failure rate
2)a mid-early war torp that runs at the correct depth but with the same exploder problems.
3) a mid war torp with the magnetic exploder completely disabled but with the contact exploder working the exact opposite of the one in SH3: you will recall that in SH3, the exploder was only reliable withing X degrees of 90 and that oblique shots would often fail to explode. Simply flip that over, and you have the Mk14 contact exploder.
4) a mid-late war torp with no problems, but still with a Y% failure rate (as nothing was ever really perfect).

I don't know how easy this would be to mod. The best case scenario is that you can create separate torpedos with varrying levels of supply, to simulate the availability of "fixed" torpedos. But if that's too hard then you can probably just have a mod that tweaks the torp performance at various dates but I don't know if you can actually mod how the exploder works.

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by ktrboston

Sorry but the USAF did not teach proper naval tactics, approaches, and interception at least not on ships.

but they did teach you when you use a sand wedge and when to use a pitching wedge, right?

[ktrboston]

Of Course Help me improve my short game

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I have read much the same! Hell, if I was the skipper I would have told the torpedomen to change the exploder. I'm not risking 70 mens lives over a 10 dollar magnetic exploder.

All of the above is true. there was no switch to turn magnetic pistols on and off. There is even some question as to whether the Germans had such a switch. Some skippers did have their chiefs disable them, but it also required recognizing that that was the problem, and having the skills to actually do the job; otherwise every one of them would have done it.

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

All of the above is true. there was no switch to turn magnetic pistols on and off. There is even some question as to whether the Germans had such a switch. Some skippers did have their chiefs disable them, but it also required recognizing that that was the problem, and having the skills to actually do the job; otherwise every one of them would have done it.

I don't know about his. Skippers read each other's patrol reports before going out themselves, and the silent services was (is) such a close-knit community that I'm going to bet that it was within the first couple months of the war that the general consensus was that the torpedos were junk. And it wasn't much longer before plenty of good skippers were reporting that their torps were running directly under their targets. The fact that BuOrd and ComSubPac were ordering skippers to shoot the torps as they had been designed (under the keel) and to not disable the magnetic exploders would seem to indicate that pretty much everybody knew that they ran deep and that the magnetic exploders were crap and that people were actually shooting shallow for contact, and moreover that this was reportedly working better than the ordered tactics. Otherwise, why tell everyone not to do it? Since the torps required routine maintenance and navy torpedomen were well trained, actually disabling them was more time consuming that difficult.

I think that pretty much everyone knew that they didn't work right, but some skippers were just more adept at discerning which orders should be followed and which shouldn't. Let's not forget that most of the early war skippers were older, peace-time navy skippers, who had risen to their positions by playing the game. It took a while for the maverick, do whatever it takes-type of skipper to become commonplace.

That and at least a certain number of torps worked just fine, which would dissuade some skippers from using non-approved tactics since their buddy so-and-so had just come back from a patrol with a few ships sunk and everything had worked well for him.

There was immense pressure on skippers to sink ships. Those that didn't were replaced. Yet there was also immense pressure to operate exactly as ordered. This affects different people differently.

[cali03boss]

Well after reading this all over I understand your guys' comments. But as far as the war date and torpedo settings...I'm playing in November of '43.

And From what AVG said, I guess if anyone would like advice Ill give it out.

Its all about not stressing out.

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by cali03boss

And From what AVG said, I guess if anyone would like advice Ill give it out.

well, based on your original post where you said that you don't understand how people are missing with their shots, I think I can shed some light on that as I was having a lot of problems until recently.

The biggest problem for me was AOB. I was getting it pretty close, but my shots were consistently missing either just forward or just aft of the target. Once I changed my method of determining AOB, my shots are all hitting except for duds and when I rush a shot or make a stupid mistake.

Previously, I was determining AOB either by my manual plot or by eyeballing it. Once I watched wernersobe's vids, where you determine course and then adjust the AOB wheel until it matches the target heading in the tdc, that problem was resolved. I really wasn't off by much before that, but over time the PK will really be off with even a relatively small AOB error.

I was also getting the range wrong by a couple hundred yards...again, not much but enough that over time the PK ends of being off just enough to miss. First I was a victim of the known imperial measurement error with ship heights, but then I was just not being careful enough when using the tool. Some people have said that range doesn't matter at all, but I don't see how this is possible.

I was usually right on with speed but again, even a mistake of a knot or two can cause a problem over time or with a long shot.

+/- ~200 yards and ~5 degrees AOB when you start the position keeper can ruin the entire shot if you just assume that everything is correct. And the indicated bearing and AOB on the pk is close enough to the target's true bearing and AOB that you don't notice an error a lot of the times. It can look like you've set the shot up perfectly, only to have torps miss the target by several yards

[cali03boss]

The biggest problem for me was AOB.

Usually always the problem. I've tried all the online plotting stuff and it just does't work for me. What you said sounds like one of the other tutorials I saw here on the web. I don't remember which one. I do what is called "point eye ball mark". My dad taught it to me (he served as an XO during the 70s). You look at a target, reguardless of your bearing or approach.....take your right hand and recreate what the ship looks like to you when locked on. Be careful, but be quick...mimic the AOB by what you see with your hand. Then lock your wrist with your muscles...and rotate your arm forward so you see your hand...and the AOB vertically. Then you match it to the computer's diaginal finder.(in this case the picture of the boat)

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by cali03boss

. My dad taught it to me (he served as an XO during the 70s).

my dad was also a submariner. What boats did he serve on?

[Powerthighs]

Some people have said that range doesn't matter at all, but I don't see how this is possible.

I've seen this a lot too, and its simply not true. Of course range matters. At the very least, it determines how long your torpedos run, so it affects how much the target is led.

[cali03boss]

my dad was also a submariner. What boats did he serve on?

He was on two...one was called the Hato or something...the other I don't remember. I can ask though next time I see him. (Im away at college)

EDIT:

Woodril Wilson? i think that may have been the other one.

[cali03boss]

Of course range matters.

Should be updated the most as well. Who says range doesn't matter?

[amurph182]

Originally Posted by cali03boss

Who says range doesn't matter?

without taking the time to do a search and tell you exactly who says this, it has been repeadtedly stated on this board that range doesn't affect torpedo accuracy. Since you can't create a solution without it, I don't know what they're talking about unless there is some kind of flaw in the tdc. While the game has many flaws, I can't say that this is one I have seen.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by amurph182

without taking the time to do a search and tell you exactly who says this, it has been repeadtedly stated on this board that range doesn't affect torpedo accuracy. Since you can't create a solution without it, I don't know what they're talking about unless there is some kind of flaw in the tdc. While the game has many flaws, I can't say that this is one I have seen.

All three pieces of data are critical to a good solution. Perhaps range does not not have to be dead on for a good shot but.....good range will give you good data for speed estimation. I will say it again though, the closer you get the more room for error you have but with good results. Skippers got to 1500 yards or closer. I'm not one for the 3000 yard shot and most skippers did not either. So not bothering with range, how does one know how close they are to the target? Got me!