Strong talk in Finland taking wider role in Afghanistan

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Foreing missions are all voluteer based with more training before debloyment.

That is the brilliant component of it too I think. Really I wouldn't be against wearing camo for my country a few times a year, so long as I get to decide when its worth spending 18 months in a desert dying.

It would also make sure that we're all aware of the deficiencies in the military that always seem to be so hard for us over here to understand.

[Skybird]

One should not force somebody to participate in a war and the killing of people against his convictions and/or decisions. But a member of the military cannot be given the freedom to choose freely in which war he wants to serve, and in which one not - if the situation occurs, a military memeber has to go and fight, no matter what he thinks, period. That's why I am against conscription in general, for principal reasons. It is not a job just like any other, and thus should be left to those who really put, for whatever their reasons are, their heart into it, fully accepting the consequences and knowing what they give up : the freedom to choose. Also, I refuse the idea to accumulate extra points, or prestige in the widest sense, in military service that can be changed for advantages in later civilian life, or gain access to posts and universities places that else would have remained locked. That is a little bit too totalitarian a society system for me. It reminds me of the draft of a society you can see in that Verhoeven-movie "Starship Troopers". Maybe that and other latent criticism in it were the reason why it was a flop in the anglosaxon world? Becasue it painted out how temtping a fascist society is - because it could function. The question is for the cost of that.

What I agree on is to have an obligatory year of commitment after school, were boys and girls can choose between several alternatives in how far they run an obligatory year of communal, social, or comparable work, which may, but must not include the military, and can mean participating in international projects (aid work, etc) as well.

I'm also all for school uniforms, changed education paradigms, penalties for parents violating their legal parental responsibility, etc. - and there you are - I get started again... Changing the general attitude of the individual towards the community he lives in (and of), is more than just making a year of serving obligatory, many things come together, because many different factors with different effects on the individual's approach on life form our society. If we see young ones misbehaving and not respecting the freedom and wealth they live in, and think their handies and special proprietary cloathing is more decisive for wether you are "in" or "out", then this is only a mirror of the adult's society and leads to a general superficial attitude that our modern world is plagued by - and the society mirror the juvenile cults as well to some degree. It's about mutual effecting, so you need to start fixing society at many different levels and accident sites simultaneously.

So, military conscription is never acceptable for me, for principal and ethical reasons. And ugly experience tells that such a system also is no remedy to racism (becasue somebody mentioned that) or extremism.Referring to german military as well as other military - it'S a problem everyhwere, as I see it. Is Finland really that different?

[Teho]

Originally Posted by Skybird

One should not force somebody to participate in a war and the killing of people against his convictions and/or decisions.

We don't. War mongers are a thing on their own(coffUSAcoff). We are not training military to attack every country in the middle east. There's this big place called Russia nearby, and the new American bases in central Europe wont help a thing. If Russians decide to go, then we are gone, no matter what. Then the best bet is a large army, not being allied with yanks.

[Happy Times]

One should not force somebody to participate in a war and the killing of people against his convictions and/or decisions.

We have the civil service option for these people, some 6% take it.

But a member of the military cannot be given the freedom to choose freely in which war he wants to serve, and in which one not - if the situation occurs, a military memeber has to go and fight, no matter what he thinks, period.

Our career soldiers officers, NCOs and enlisted men go were ordered. Theres always more volunteers to foreign missions than they have need.

That's why I am against conscription in general, for principal reasons. It is not a job just like any other, and thus should be left to those who really put, for whatever their reasons are, their heart into it, fully accepting the consequences and knowing what they give up : the freedom to choose.

No reason to be against. They have given vows to defend their country, nobody forces them. Why wouldnt a citizen want to defend his country? If someone has a problem in doing that i think it is only selfishness, but they have the civil service.

Also, I refuse the idea to accumulate extra points, or prestige in the widest sense, in military service that can be changed for advantages in later civilian life, or gain access to posts and universities places that else would have remained locked. That is a little bit too totalitarian a society system for me. It reminds me of the draft of a society you can see in that Verhoeven-movie "Starship Troopers". Maybe that and other latent criticism in it were the reason why it was a flop in the anglosaxon world? Becasue it painted out how temtping a fascist society is - because it could function. The question is for the cost of that.

Its not like they wouldnt get in college otherwise. Its just a way to reward them for giving this service to their country. Its the state that is the real winner, they get the best talent to serve in the military. Of the 30.000 concripts a year, some 1400 are selected to the officer school in Hamina. Most of our leaders in goverment, business and research are reserve officers. Some even stay instead of going to some better paid civilian career. For our fachist state it has worked well for 90 years and is combat tested.

So, military conscription is never acceptable for me, for principal and ethical reasons. And ugly experience tells that such a system also is no remedy to racism (becasue somebody mentioned that) or extremism.Referring to german military as well as other military - it'S a problem everyhwere, as I see it. Is Finland really that different?

Finns have actually very racist attitudes sometimes. But its mostly towards those that people feel dont appreciate what we have built here. I can honestly say that there wasnt any racism when i served. We had people of vietnamese, african and russian decent in our patch. They really wanted to be there, when they saw they get treated the same by their superiors and respect for being there from their peers. I remember an african who didnt know how to ski but went on stubbornly. He got the respect of us all. Most of these imigrants went to NCO school. Their families seemed very proud at the graduation, they knew what it ment in our society.

[TteFAboB]

So if you refuse civil service you go to jail? Certainly you're not mentioning the exception for motives of conscience or religion?

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

So if you refuse civil service you go to jail? Certainly you're not mentioning the exception for motives of conscience or religion?

Yes, if you wont do either you get 197 days of prison. I dont see how some should get a free ride while others serve for the common good.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Yes, if you wont do either you get 197 days of prison.

190.

200.

197? :hmm:

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

190.

200.

197? :hmm:

Beats me.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Yes, if you wont do either you get 197 days of prison. I dont see how some should get a free ride while others serve for the common good.

Where else is it like this? The conscripted nations I knew included the exception, but they are kept in low profile, pretty much hidden actually, to prevent every smart ass from abusing of it since the state doesn't have any means to tell a fair claim from a false one, just like it is forced to recognize as a religion anything that proclaims itself as one.

This is a very clever way of closing the gap. Who could have a problem with civil service? Actually, what is this civil service? The internet tells me it's basically governamental slave labor.

[August]

Civil service is not the same as military service therefore concientious objections do not apply.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

Where else is it like this? The conscripted nations I knew included the exception, but they are kept in low profile, pretty much hidden actually, to prevent every smart ass from abusing of it since the state doesn't have any means to tell a fair claim from a false one, just like it is forced to recognize as a religion anything that proclaims itself as one.

This is a very clever way of closing the gap. Who could have a problem with civil service? Actually, what is this civil service? The internet tells me it's basically governamental slave labor.

I think in Israel you get jailtime if you refuse to serve, AL will know better. Altough they have some religious groups that are exempted but have an option to volunteer. We have the Jehovas witnesses as such a group. Dont know why, its been so from the beginning, there has been talk to end this privilege. Other exempted group is the swedish speaking population of the Åland islands, its an autonomous demilitarised region of Finland. Have to stress that the swedish speaking minority in the mainland do serve, they even have their own unit in the Navy, the Nyland Brigade, it gives training in swedish for coastal jägers. The civil service members work in retirement homes, schools, goverment etc. They first get training in civil service centers but after they get assigned somewhere they can do their service from home. This is why the lenght of the service is 13 months, Amnesty International still sees this discriminatory. They also consider the total objectors in prison as political prisoners.

[TteFAboB]

Amnesty International needs to highlight that a small nation-state like Finland has to do this kind of thing to remain independent. But the civil service does smell because it sounds like a false alternative. You can't really refuse conscription, if you do, you'll just be conscripted elsewhere. You can choose between mud (or snow) and an office, but you're going to serve the state either way or go to jail.

It's similar to land taxes. You may have a property, but try refusing to pay the land tax to see how yours it really is. Of course, you are only forced to serve once, for a year or so, unless there's a war, I guess, while the tax will be there year after year after year.

I have a final question: can you apply for civil service in Santa's workshop?

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

Amnesty International needs to highlight that a small nation-state like Finland has to do this kind of thing to remain independent. But the civil service does smell because it sounds like a false alternative. You can't really refuse conscription, if you do, you'll just be conscripted elsewhere. You can choose between mud (or snow) and an office, but you're going to serve the state either way or go to jail.

It's similar to land taxes. You may have a property, but try refusing to pay the land tax to see how yours it really is. Of course, you are only forced to serve once, for a year or so, unless there's a war, I guess, while the tax will be there year after year after year.

I have a final question: can you apply for civil service in Santa's workshop?

And Finns understand this very well, we wouldnt be here with out this system.
Well actually theres refresher training for the reserves, some 30.000 train each year for some two weeks. Same amount takes part in voluntary exercises.
Dont know, have to write Santa and ask.

[Happy Times]

Finnish Isaf troops to receive 90 tonnes of kit

http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showar...&group=General


Finnish priest who opposes female ordination wants to serve in Afghanistan

http://virtual.finland.fi/stt/showar...&group=General

[Jimbuna]

I wonder what type of vehicle and from whom they were renting them from ? :hmm: