TDC reset, how do you do it? - Page 2

WernerSobe · 07-18-07, 10:42 AM

It doesnt matter how bad the solution is until you fire the fish. And you can correct the sollution at any time.

So leaving the position keeper turning even with wrong data will not screw your firing solution that you have not set up yet. So let the position keeper going, and put the new dataset one by one. Just make sure you resend the range last because it also sends the bearing. You want the position keeper to start calculations with the right bearing right?

Powerthighs · 07-18-07, 01:25 PM

Correct that you don't have to reset it. I usually leave the TDC on for the entire patrol.

Once you have speed and AOB set correctly, one last range/bearing input will ensure the PK is tracking accurately. If you ever change speed or AOB you need to do another range/bearing input.

All that matters is that the PK is correct by the time you shoot. Inaccuracies while setting up a solution don't matter.

[EDIT] I basically seconded what Werner said above.

Powerthighs · 07-18-07, 01:34 PM

Another way to look at it is range/bearing tells the PK where the target is now. Speed and AOB tell the PK how the target will move in the future.

Once you have Speed and AOB set correctly (the ability to know future movement), one last range/bearing input (the current positition) will make the PK solution accurate, regardless of how much it was wrong due to previous activity or previous targets.

Chakal · 08-11-07, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

You dont need to reset it at all.

Just aim for next vessel and put in new data. You must make sure the target was identified and that you send the range last.

This is why it works: PK can be corrected on the fly. That means when its running and you are not happy with something like the speed or AoB, you can just put new data and the position keeper will update the solution. You can also update the ships actual location by sending new bearing and range to position keeper.

Sending range also provides bearing where your periscope optics are aiming at. So sending AoB will just update the solution with new AoB. Sending Speed will update the solution with just new speed. Sending Range will update the Solution with bearing and range so basicly it will provide a new location.

So if I understand, you need to update the AOB for each targets you are aiming to! Even in Convoy??

In SH3, in a convoy situation, the TDC was linked with the periscope ( red/green nob). After you had find the AOB for one target, you had just to point another target with the periscope to get and updated AOB for that target.

And in the "Fast 90" targeting way, where you set ur course perpendiculary to the course of the target with AOB = 90 ( port or Starb..) at bearing 0, the AOB of the target was updated only by pointing it with the periscope.

This option of linking or unlinking the TDC with the periscope was very usefull in SH3, specialy in a "sonar only attack" or a Sub vs Sub fight where you conduct ur attack only from the attack map with the TDC unlinked to the periscope. It was then possible to enter a bearing in the TDC only by turning its nob.

So all this is absent in SH4 ??

Is it possible to enter a bearing directly in the TDC without using periscope or the "send to TDC" button from the sonar ?

Im new to SH4 ( got my copy only 2 days ago) and I dont understand yet how the position Keeper works. Maybe thats why the Note Pad miss me that much...lol

Joe S · 08-11-07, 10:45 PM

I am still experimenting with TDC procedure and havent found one yet that I really like. My main objection is the inability to manually set the range. If there is a way to do it, I would apprecitat it if someone could let me know. For example, in the rare case where you actually have time to track a target for a while, if the tdc plot is not tracking properly and you know your solution needs adjustment, you can manually adjust the aob and speed estimates, but there is no way to make an adjustment for the range, because as far as I can tell, the only way to enter range is by the split image method, and if your boat is bouncing and you get a result you know is not correct, you are stuck with it until you get a chance to do it over, which means exposing the scope more than you want to. Joe S

Frederf · 08-12-07, 03:41 AM

You can enter a manual range by dragging the bug on the TDC wheel, unfortunately it has a limit of ~1200 yards when setting manually.

The PK doesn't need to be turned off and on or reset between changing targets and entering new target data neccisarily BUT BE AWARE the data you enter is going to be evolved from the second you enter it.

So maybe the old data was:
Bearing 30 degrees
Range 300 yards
AOB 90 Right
Speed 21 kts

And the new data is:
Bearing 0 degrees
Range 1000 yards
AOB 0 degrees
Speed 2 kts

The second you update the bearing/range, the PK will try to evolve your data according to its picture in the middle of your update process. So it'll think briefly that the target is ahead of you, abeam, and going very fast to the right, screwing up the nice correct data you inputted before you update the AOB and Speed.

odjig292 · 08-13-07, 03:55 PM

I'm glad to find this thread. I'm a noob that has been combing the archives to get an answer to manual targeting after the first ship. I find the process is inconsistent as are the answers. Everyone seems to have a different solution. The first target is generally routine. The problem is when you switch to a second or third target.

I take bearings on the second ship and enter to the TDC. The PK is off. I check the torpedo solution (green line) in the Attack map before I fire and find that it can be right on, or still tracking the first ship, or curving anywhere. Sometime engaging the PK corrects it, sometimes it doesn't. The only way I've found to clear a bad solution so far is to lower the periscope until the Attack map clears and start over. It's not the road to survival when there are three destroyers circling.

I would hope that a modder (or V1.4) can give us a button to push after we have taken a bearing on a locked target that clears the previous torpedo solution, zeros out the need for speed or distance settings, and launches a selected bow or stern torpedo up that bearing FAST. It would only be good for very close shots or when you need to put a torpedo "down the throat". Killer Kane in Wahoo could do that in real life. Why shouldn't we be able to the same?

amurph182 · 08-14-07, 09:06 AM

I find engaging multiple targets to be fairly easy.

Using SH4 1.3 and TM1.5, the most common multiple ship encounter I have is the two ship convoy (if it can be called that). My method of attack is as follows:

1) identify both targets. decide which is the primary and which is the secondary target, usually based on tonnage but sometimes I will not be in a good attack position because of a target course change and so must go after whichever presents the best opportunity.

2) begin tracking primary:
a) get range
b) wait a few minutes, get range again
c) determine course and speed
d) based on course, enter AOB
e) activate PK

3) decide which torpedos to fire at each target. Set torpedo depth and speed, open tubes.

4) when ready to fire, raise scope one last time for last second bearing and range check.

5) fire on primary target.

6) switch to secondary. you already know the course and speed of the target, so all you have to do is get a range and then adjust AOB, which is simply a matter of adjusting the AOB dial until the TDC shows the correct target course.

7) fire on secondary target, and begin manuevering for follow-up shots from stern tubes if required.

If the sea is calm, I can fire my first torp at the second target within 5 seconds of firing the last torp at the primary. It helps that you can point the scope at whatever you want, and can even get range before you're done shooting at the first target. Until you actually send the data to the TDC, the PK tracks the first target. In heavy seas, it's obvously not as quick.

The only time I have problems here is when the convoy makes a course change in the middle of my approach, then you have to wait for all of your targets to get on the same course. And when the seas are rough, you need more time to get the range so it can screw up your planning.

If I time it right, it's not too hard to have your torps hit both targets at the same time, although sometimes that means firing at the smaller target first which can cause your solution for the second target to be rushed and mabe a bit off.

Something I haven't tried yet but want to: firing a spread at a convoy without aiming at particular ships. Get a solution on a ship in the middle, and then fire all ten tubes only making torpedo gyro adjustments, and then see how many I can hit. From my reading, this was done often when engaging convoys on the surface at night, when you didn't have time to set up on each individual ship and just needed to hit whatever you could.

amurph182 · 08-14-07, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odjig292

I would hope that a modder (or V1.4) can give us a button to push after we have taken a bearing on a locked target that clears the previous torpedo solution, zeros out the need for speed or distance settings, and launches a selected bow or stern torpedo up that bearing FAST. It would only be good for very close shots or when you need to put a torpedo "down the throat". Killer Kane in Wahoo could do that in real life. Why shouldn't we be able to the same?

you can do this easily as well.

if you need to shoot FAST, then you usually need to do this when a DD is coming right at you with a bone in its teeth. So bearing to target won't change much. Just take a quick range estimate...it won't be correct since you likely didn't identify the ship. But it sends bearing to the TDC. Set speed to zero, and then AOB doesn't matter either. Voila, torp shot down bearing. If you practice, you can do it in a couple seconds. open door, set depth the shallow and speed to high. Target speed 0. Bearing...MARK. FIRE ONE!

If you're good at estimating range and speed on sight, you can put them in manually. I'm not good at this, so I don't bother and my accuracy probably suffers.

it's not accurate at all if the target is on your beam, but if he's within 30 degrees of your bow or stern, it works often enough for me and out to 45 degrees I can get lucky.

either way, simply entering range with zero speed will send a torp down that bearing.

Trout · 08-14-07, 10:40 AM

so, to summarize....

As long as you get a final range reading and send it to the TDC before firing, you can just leave the PK on.

Sending range data is how the TDC knows the bearing to target (cool to know, since now I'll try some snap shots!)

Trout

amurph182 · 08-14-07, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trout

so, to summarize....

As long as you get a final range reading and send it to the TDC before firing, you can just leave the PK on.

Sending range data is how the TDC knows the bearing to target (cool to know, since now I'll try some snap shots!)

Trout

correct, as long as you have updated the other information first.

odjig292 · 08-14-07, 02:44 PM

I'll try what you suggest. I was being served as lunch with three destroyers circling and torpedo shots were going wide because of previous solutions I couldn't get rid of.

amurph182 · 08-14-07, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by odjig292

I'll try what you suggest. I was being served as lunch with three destroyers circling and torpedo shots were going wide because of previous solutions I couldn't get rid of.

if they're circling then my method won't help you as it is for use when there is little to no bearing change. If they're not charging directly at you, then the torp will go down the bearing you give the tdc but the ship won't be there. The reason my method for snapshots works at all is because the speed is set to zero. If you fire at a target with an AOB more than a couple of degrees, you'll miss unless you're extremely close.

Remember that if you simply turn off the PK then the TDC will just shoot with whatever info you've put into the system. So if you have DD's circling you, and using the same pattern over and over, then you can set up the shot ahead of time for the AOB and speed that you expect the target to be at when you want to shoot and just take a last second range estimate and shoot.

ex: the three DD's are circling you, and they keep crossing your stern at 90AOB and look like they're doing 10kts. So you set speed 10 and AOB 90 into the tdc with the PK off, and then when one gets into that position you just range him and shoot. They're so close that even if you're off with speed and AOB you still have a good chance at a hit if you're at least in the ballpark.

if they're too far away for that, then you probably have enough time to set up a proper solution or go deep. And if they're charging right in on you and almost on top of you, then just shooting down a given bearing is acceptable.

odjig292 · 08-15-07, 10:20 AM

I twice tried using the TDC to calculate speed and got "not enough data". I haven't installed TM1.4 yet. Does it correct this?

I tried the Samar short mission to test your ideas. The three shots at the Kongo went well and I was able to switch to the Yamato. I put two into it. Both were dead in the water and I circled to bring stern tubes to bear but I could not get the torpedo solution to change to finish them off. I clicked the Range and Bearing settings over and over as well as activated and deactivated the PK twice before the screen crashed.

After cleaning dead files and freeing up RAM, I went back to the scenario. Somewhat similar experience but sunk the Kongo and was focusing on the Yamato when I got run over by a destroyer that took out torpedo tubes, periscope, etc. I could not change the torpedo setting to fire at him. Then a phone call came in from China that blew the session. I must be doing something wrong but I don't know what. I cannot clear the torpedo solutions on the attack map after the second ship. I've loaded the program and V1.3 three times and no change.

I'm using a 3.1 GHz Celeron, 1MB ram and ATI 1550X 512MB grahics card and running on LOW resolution with minimum features. Why can't I clear the previous solutions? There is no sense in playing the game until I figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Powerthighs · 08-15-07, 11:18 AM

It's not supposed to be easy to fire at ships that are manuevering.

To do a snapshot, just turn off the position keeper, set the target speed to zero, point the periscope at the bearing you want to fire on and click the "send range" button. You will have to estimate when to fire and how much to lead the target. There is a good chance you will miss.

It's not realistic to expect to take out ships left and right as they are circling you and aware of your presence. Success came, both historically and in the game, when taking advantage of stealth to develop your firing solution undetected. Once they are aware of your presence you no longer have the advantage.

08-13-07, 03:55 PM	#22
odjig292 Mate Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 55 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	We need a fix for manual targeting? I'm glad to find this thread. I'm a noob that has been combing the archives to get an answer to manual targeting after the first ship. I find the process is inconsistent as are the answers. Everyone seems to have a different solution. The first target is generally routine. The problem is when you switch to a second or third target. I take bearings on the second ship and enter to the TDC. The PK is off. I check the torpedo solution (green line) in the Attack map before I fire and find that it can be right on, or still tracking the first ship, or curving anywhere. Sometime engaging the PK corrects it, sometimes it doesn't. The only way I've found to clear a bad solution so far is to lower the periscope until the Attack map clears and start over. It's not the road to survival when there are three destroyers circling. I would hope that a modder (or V1.4) can give us a button to push after we have taken a bearing on a locked target that clears the previous torpedo solution, zeros out the need for speed or distance settings, and launches a selected bow or stern torpedo up that bearing FAST. It would only be good for very close shots or when you need to put a torpedo "down the throat". Killer Kane in Wahoo could do that in real life. Why shouldn't we be able to the same?

08-14-07, 02:44 PM	#27
odjig292 Mate Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 55 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thanks guys I'll try what you suggest. I was being served as lunch with three destroyers circling and torpedo shots were going wide because of previous solutions I couldn't get rid of.

08-15-07, 10:20 AM	#29
odjig292 Mate Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 55 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It didn't work I twice tried using the TDC to calculate speed and got "not enough data". I haven't installed TM1.4 yet. Does it correct this? I tried the Samar short mission to test your ideas. The three shots at the Kongo went well and I was able to switch to the Yamato. I put two into it. Both were dead in the water and I circled to bring stern tubes to bear but I could not get the torpedo solution to change to finish them off. I clicked the Range and Bearing settings over and over as well as activated and deactivated the PK twice before the screen crashed. After cleaning dead files and freeing up RAM, I went back to the scenario. Somewhat similar experience but sunk the Kongo and was focusing on the Yamato when I got run over by a destroyer that took out torpedo tubes, periscope, etc. I could not change the torpedo setting to fire at him. Then a phone call came in from China that blew the session. I must be doing something wrong but I don't know what. I cannot clear the torpedo solutions on the attack map after the second ship. I've loaded the program and V1.3 three times and no change. I'm using a 3.1 GHz Celeron, 1MB ram and ATI 1550X 512MB grahics card and running on LOW resolution with minimum features. Why can't I clear the previous solutions? There is no sense in playing the game until I figure out what I'm doing wrong.

07-18-07, 10:42 AM	#16
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	It doesnt matter how bad the solution is until you fire the fish. And you can correct the sollution at any time. So leaving the position keeper turning even with wrong data will not screw your firing solution that you have not set up yet. So let the position keeper going, and put the new dataset one by one. Just make sure you resend the range last because it also sends the bearing. You want the position keeper to start calculations with the right bearing right?

07-18-07, 01:25 PM	#17
Powerthighs Beach Leaf Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 287 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Correct that you don't have to reset it. I usually leave the TDC on for the entire patrol. Once you have speed and AOB set correctly, one last range/bearing input will ensure the PK is tracking accurately. If you ever change speed or AOB you need to do another range/bearing input. All that matters is that the PK is correct by the time you shoot. Inaccuracies while setting up a solution don't matter. [EDIT] I basically seconded what Werner said above.

07-18-07, 01:34 PM	#18
Powerthighs Beach Leaf Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 287 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Another way to look at it is range/bearing tells the PK where the target is now. Speed and AOB tell the PK how the target will move in the future. Once you have Speed and AOB set correctly (the ability to know future movement), one last range/bearing input (the current positition) will make the PK solution accurate, regardless of how much it was wrong due to previous activity or previous targets.

08-11-07, 10:45 PM	#20
Joe S XO Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 409 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	I am still experimenting with TDC procedure and havent found one yet that I really like. My main objection is the inability to manually set the range. If there is a way to do it, I would apprecitat it if someone could let me know. For example, in the rare case where you actually have time to track a target for a while, if the tdc plot is not tracking properly and you know your solution needs adjustment, you can manually adjust the aob and speed estimates, but there is no way to make an adjustment for the range, because as far as I can tell, the only way to enter range is by the split image method, and if your boat is bouncing and you get a result you know is not correct, you are stuck with it until you get a chance to do it over, which means exposing the scope more than you want to. Joe S

08-12-07, 03:41 AM	#21
Frederf Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 665 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 1	You can enter a manual range by dragging the bug on the TDC wheel, unfortunately it has a limit of ~1200 yards when setting manually. The PK doesn't need to be turned off and on or reset between changing targets and entering new target data neccisarily BUT BE AWARE the data you enter is going to be evolved from the second you enter it. So maybe the old data was: Bearing 30 degrees Range 300 yards AOB 90 Right Speed 21 kts And the new data is: Bearing 0 degrees Range 1000 yards AOB 0 degrees Speed 2 kts The second you update the bearing/range, the PK will try to evolve your data according to its picture in the middle of your update process. So it'll think briefly that the target is ahead of you, abeam, and going very fast to the right, screwing up the nice correct data you inputted before you update the AOB and Speed.

08-14-07, 09:06 AM	#23
amurph182 Seaman Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 35 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I find engaging multiple targets to be fairly easy. Using SH4 1.3 and TM1.5, the most common multiple ship encounter I have is the two ship convoy (if it can be called that). My method of attack is as follows: 1) identify both targets. decide which is the primary and which is the secondary target, usually based on tonnage but sometimes I will not be in a good attack position because of a target course change and so must go after whichever presents the best opportunity. 2) begin tracking primary: a) get range b) wait a few minutes, get range again c) determine course and speed d) based on course, enter AOB e) activate PK 3) decide which torpedos to fire at each target. Set torpedo depth and speed, open tubes. 4) when ready to fire, raise scope one last time for last second bearing and range check. 5) fire on primary target. 6) switch to secondary. you already know the course and speed of the target, so all you have to do is get a range and then adjust AOB, which is simply a matter of adjusting the AOB dial until the TDC shows the correct target course. 7) fire on secondary target, and begin manuevering for follow-up shots from stern tubes if required. If the sea is calm, I can fire my first torp at the second target within 5 seconds of firing the last torp at the primary. It helps that you can point the scope at whatever you want, and can even get range before you're done shooting at the first target. Until you actually send the data to the TDC, the PK tracks the first target. In heavy seas, it's obvously not as quick. The only time I have problems here is when the convoy makes a course change in the middle of my approach, then you have to wait for all of your targets to get on the same course. And when the seas are rough, you need more time to get the range so it can screw up your planning. If I time it right, it's not too hard to have your torps hit both targets at the same time, although sometimes that means firing at the smaller target first which can cause your solution for the second target to be rushed and mabe a bit off. Something I haven't tried yet but want to: firing a spread at a convoy without aiming at particular ships. Get a solution on a ship in the middle, and then fire all ten tubes only making torpedo gyro adjustments, and then see how many I can hit. From my reading, this was done often when engaging convoys on the surface at night, when you didn't have time to set up on each individual ship and just needed to hit whatever you could.

08-14-07, 10:40 AM	#25
Trout A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 76 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	so, to summarize.... As long as you get a final range reading and send it to the TDC before firing, you can just leave the PK on. Sending range data is how the TDC knows the bearing to target (cool to know, since now I'll try some snap shots!) Trout

08-15-07, 11:18 AM	#30
Powerthighs Beach Leaf Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 287 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	It's not supposed to be easy to fire at ships that are manuevering. To do a snapshot, just turn off the position keeper, set the target speed to zero, point the periscope at the bearing you want to fire on and click the "send range" button. You will have to estimate when to fire and how much to lead the target. There is a good chance you will miss. It's not realistic to expect to take out ships left and right as they are circling you and aware of your presence. Success came, both historically and in the game, when taking advantage of stealth to develop your firing solution undetected. Once they are aware of your presence you no longer have the advantage.