Definitive torpedo depth/exploder status in 1.3

[nomad_delta]

Here is an in-game video I recorded demonstrating the problem:



Sorry for the low quality - blame YouTube and/or my poor video encoding skills, but I think it's clear enough to get the idea across.

This test was run on a clean install of SH4 and patch 1.3, on a slightly modified version of the "torpedo attack" training mission with stationary freighters as targets. Gameplay settings were Imperial measurements and 0% realism (no duds).

I modified the 'magnetic detonation range' value for the Mark14 torpedo in the 'torpedoes_us.sim' file to 50 meters so there would be no question as to whether the torpedo hit the ship or not. I made no other changes to any other files, and no mods installed.

___________

In the video, I first launch a torpedo set to Contact Only & depth 50 feet at a Large Composite Freighter. I then use the external camera to view the torpedo as it approaches the ship, and it clearly explodes very far away (probably about 50 meters) from the ship without ever touching it.

I then launch a second torpedo toward another Large Composite Freighter aft of my sub -- this one set to Contact/Influence & depth 50 feet. I view the results with the external camera, and again it clearly explodes very far away from the ship without ever touching it.

___________

Also just for kicks I ran the same test in Silent Hunter IV 1.0 (no patches) and saw the exact same results, with the exception of the torpedo depth dial being in meters rather than feet. So that confirms two things: 1. the magnetic exploders have worked in the game since the very beginning, and 2. the exploder switch hasn't worked in the game since the very beginning.

Oy.

nomad_delta

[switch.dota]

Glad to see someone persistent enough to figure out the inner workings of things. Thnaks for all the effort and info! Now this should be presented to the experienced modders to see if there's anything to be done about it (i.e. remove the dial or smth).

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by switch.dota

Glad to see someone persistent enough to figure out the inner workings of things. Thnaks for all the effort and info! Now this should be presented to the experienced modders to see if there's anything to be done about it (i.e. remove the dial or smth).

One of the developers was kind enough to PM me back re: this, and is actually going to look into it, time permitting. (I'm absolutely ecstatic about that, btw -- three cheers for Ubisoft Romania! ) So with any luck the modder's help won't be necessary. That was actually my goal once I figured out that there was a problem: create a mod to fix it. That's still my goal, if it comes to that -- but I haven't figured out any way to make it work as intended with the tools I have available, so far.

In the meantime, I'm hard at work running more empirical testing to answer a bunch of other questions I have about the internal working of the sim. Before I get back to it, I'll try to answer a couple of questions people posted here in the thread:

Originally Posted by Bando

Nomad, when you're looking at the torpedo files, you may want to take a look at the explosive poweras as well.

I haven't run any specific testing or tweaks on the torpedo explosion powers or damage radiuses yet, but the tests I've run so far make me think that's something's definitely 'off'. If you watch that video I just posted, for example, note how much damage (big explosion!) the torpedos do to the freighters even though they exploded some ~50 meters away! I'm no torpedo expert, but I would think that a torpedo exploding 50 meters away should do almost no damage at all, right? In a few of my tests, the freighters even sank with a single torpedo detonated at 50 meters. Note that I haven't changed the torpedo power or radius values at all -- that video was made with stock values there. I'll put this at 'high priority' on my list of things to look into and I'll try to run some more specific tests ASAP.

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

How reliable are the magnetic exploders in the game? Do they fail often or is it a (near) 100% hit rate?

I'm actually running some tests right now to answer this as well as some of my own 'reliability' related questions. I'll post my findings as soon as I'm done.

Cheers, everyone. Here's to making an excellent sim even better.

nomad_delta

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

Initially, the magnetic exploders were seen by the US Navy as a secret weapon that would give the US a significant advantage.

:rotfl:

That's great! The Germans had been using them since 1939, and suffered similar problems. So of course we had a "secret weapon".

Originally Posted by XanderF

I actually like that idea - including the concept of it 'costing renown' to do it, as it does reflect disobeying orders.

I don't, but only because they didn't tell anybody they were disobeying orders, so you shouldn't get caught doing it. A better idea might be to be able to do it if you have a COB with high enough qualifications; but then people would just make sure they had a Chief with those quals, and again defeat the purpose.

So maybe you're right after all.

The biggest problem with games is gamers...

[PepsiCan]

These are all valid and good ideas, but the fact is that there is a big chance that the malfunctioning of the detonator switch is in the code. So, without a patch there is no way this can be fixed.

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

These are all valid and good ideas, but the fact is that there is a big chance that the malfunctioning of the detonator switch is in the code. So, without a patch there is no way this can be fixed.

Based on everything I've seen and tried changing in torpedoes_us.sim and dials.cfg to fix this, it's certainly looking like the problem is in the EXE and not in the "moddable" files. One of the devs said they would look into it, so I'm going to be patient and see what they say. If it's fixable either with or without a patch, I'm sure they'd know how to do it more readily than we would. All of my knowledge about how the .sim and .cfg files are used by the game comes through trial an error... usually heavy on the 'error' part.

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Thanks for the testing Nomad_Delta, did you notice if the reliability of torpedoes was changed in 1.3?

I haven't done specific comparison testing of 1.2 vs. 1.3 for reliability yet, but what I can tell you is that the "torpedoes_us.sim" file was not changed at all in patch 1.3. Since all known values affecting torpedo reliability are contained within this file, I think it's pretty safe to say that torpedo reliability has not been changed in patch 1.3.

I have done some specific reliability testing in patch 1.3 that you might find interesting, though. I've started a new "Q&A" thread so I'll have someplace to collect my thoughts & conclusions from testing, so if you have any other questions post 'em there and if I find 'em interesting enough I'll add 'em to my list to investigate:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...ighlight=nomad

nomad_delta

[joea]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

These are all valid and good ideas, but the fact is that there is a big chance that the malfunctioning of the detonator switch is in the code. So, without a patch there is no way this can be fixed.

But should it be fixed? Weren't they broken IRL?

[UnSalted]

You tell the crew "Fire" and let fate take it's course. If you want guaranteed hits, surface, close t0 500 yards and wail away with the deck guns. But first make sure it's not the Yamato you surface beside.

[PepsiCan]

Originally Posted by joea

But should it be fixed? Weren't they broken IRL?

My comment wasn't about the torpedo but about a switch in the torpedo setup screen (the screen where you also set the spread angle and depth). You can set the switch to either Contact or Contact Influence. Nomad_delta has shown that switch not to work in the game. So, in the game there is no choice as to whether you want to fire your torpedoes using the magnetic exploders or not. Players see a switch but it doesn't work. Instead, there is a hardcoded date in one of the sim files that turns the magnetic exploder on or off, regardless of the choice the player has made.

[nomad_delta]

Originally Posted by PepsiCan

My comment wasn't about the torpedo but about a switch in the torpedo setup screen (the screen where you also set the spread angle and depth). You can set the switch to either Contact or Contact Influence. Nomad_delta has shown that switch not to work in the game. So, in the game there is no choice as to whether you want to fire your torpedoes using the magnetic exploders or not. Players see a switch but it doesn't work. Instead, there is a hardcoded date in one of the sim files that turns the magnetic exploder on or off, regardless of the choice the player has made.

Thanks for explaining that clearly, PepsiCan. Saved me the trouble of having to type up an explanation for them myself. I think I'll write a bit more just in case anyone else coming across this thread is confused:

The torpedoes themselves had all sorts of problems in real life, it's true. That's well documented, and no one here is debating that. In fact, the devs went to considerable trouble to model the various defects and deficiencies of the Mk. 14 and other torpedoes in the game: contact torpedoes will sometimes be 'duds' and just bounce off the target without exploding, and the magnetic exploders will sometimes detonate prematurely without ever having reached the target.

Unfortunately, we don't get to properly experience this part of the simulation because the "Contact/Influence" switch in the game isn't working. I've never heard any stories about the exploder switch on Mk. 14 torpedoes being defective as well, and I highly doubt that the devs would have put that switch into the game if they hadn't intended for it to do something.

nomad_delta

[joea]

Ok clear as a bell now, thanks gents.

[nomad_delta]

edit: Jungman -- I just realized that somehow your reply in my Q&A thread ended up here instead. In the interest of continuity, I'll place my reply over there.

nomad_delta

[repalankas]

Where is Ubi's answer about this bug?

Is Sh4's development closed with this 1.3 ?

[orangenee]

Originally Posted by repalankas

Where is Ubi's answer about this bug?

Is Sh4's development closed with this 1.3 ?

I don't think they have one and I believe 1.3 is the last patch.

[PepsiCan]

Judging on what some of the devs are saying in other forums, I'd say that all's still in the balance. They haven't said anywhere this is the last patch. They haven't confirmed a new one either.

Give it a few weeks and we'll see.