MG42s?

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by emtmedic005

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

Well U 571 is total BS and based on half a dozen different subs and actions so I wouldnt believe a thing in that film
Although I probably havent read as many uboat books as some on here I dont think I have read one account of shooting survivers
Plenty of giving them water and supplies and then radioing in the position
:hmm:

[Growler]

Originally Posted by emtmedic005

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

One Hollywood interpretation of several stories does not a factual account create.

Remember, Hollywierd exists to sell movies, and the best way to do that is to either, A: Increase the sex appeal, or B: Increase the shock value. Since none of us wants to think about sex on a sub, that leaves only the shock value option available.

[Pants]

Dönitz issued orders NOT to pick up survivors after the Laconia incident on September 12 1942.

The Laconia incident was an incident during WWII in September 1942 when RMS Laconia, carrying some 80 Civillians and 268 UK Soldiers, and about 1,800 Italian POW's with 160 Polish soldiers on guard, was struck by a torpedo from a U-Boat off the coast of West Africa and sank. The U-boat commander, Kapitänleutnant Werner Hartenstien, realized the error and commenced Rescue operations, joined by other U-boats. Heading to rendezvous with Vichy French ships under Red Cross banners, the U-boats were attacked by a US B-24. The event profoundly affected the operations of the German fleet, which abandoned the practice of attempting rescue of civilian survivors under the Laconia order of Karl Donitz.

U-156 remained on the surface at the scene for the next two and a half days. At 11:30am on September 15, she was joined by U-506 commanded by Kptlt. Erich Würdemann and a few hours later by both U-507 under Korvettenkapitän Harro Schacht and the Italian Sub Cappenilli. The four submarines with lifeboats in tow and hundreds of survivors standing on the hulls headed towards the African coastline and a rendezvous with Vichy French surface warships which had set out from Sengal and Dahomy
The next morning, September 16, at 11:25am, the four submarines, with Red Cross flags draped across their gun decks, were spotted by an American B-24 bomber from Ascension Island. Hartenstein signalled to the pilot requesting assistance. Lieutenant James D. Harden of the US airforce turned away and notified his base of the situation. The senior officer on duty that day, Captain Robert C. Richardson III, replied with the order "Sink sub." Harden flew back to the scene of the rescue effort and at 12:32pm attacked with bombs and depth charges. One landed among the lifeboats in tow behind U-156 while others straddled the submarine itself. Hartenstein cast adrift those lifeboats still afloat and ordered the survivors on his deck into the water. The submarines dived and escaped. Many hundreds of the Laconia survivors perished, but French vessels managed to re-rescue about a thousand later that day. In all, some 1,500 passengers survived. An English seaman, Tony Large, endured forty days adrift in an open life boat before he was finally picked up.


The Laconia incident had far-reaching consequences. Until then, as indicated in point #1 of the "Laconia order" (below), it was common for U-boats to assist torpedoed survivors with food, water and directions to the nearest land. Now that it was apparent that the Americans would attack rescue missions under the Red Cross flag, Dönitz ordered that rescues were prohibited; survivors were to be left in the sea.


Laconia-Befehl (Laconia Order)

1. Jegliche Rettungsversuche von Angehörigen versenkter Schiffe, also auch das Auffischen Schwimmender und Anbordgabe auf Rettungsboote, Aufrichten gekenterter Rettungsboote, Abgabe von Nahrungsmitteln und Wasser haben zu unterbleiben. Rettung widerspricht den primitivsten Forderungen der Kriegsführung nach Vernichtung feindlicher Schiffe und deren Besatzungen.
2. Die Befehle über das Mitbringen von Kapitänen und Chefingenieuren bleiben bestehen.
3. Schiffbrüchige nur dann retten, wenn ihre Aussagen für das Boot von Wichtigkeit sind.
4. Bleibt hart. Denkt daran, daß der Gegner bei seinen Bombenangriffen auf deutsche Städte keine Rücksicht auf Frauen und Kinder nimmt.

1. All efforts to save survivors of sunken ships, such as the fishing out of swimming men and putting them on board lifeboats, the righting of overturned lifeboats, or the handing over of food and water, must stop. Rescue contradicts the most basic demands of the war: the destruction of hostile ships and their crews.
2. The orders concerning the bringing-in of skippers and chief engineers stay in effect.
3. Survivors are to be saved only if their statements are important for the boat.
4. Stay firm. Remember that the enemy has no regard for women and children when bombing German cities!

And don't get me started on U-571

[Happy Times]

And then the Americans used that order against him in the Nurnberg trial.

[Kaleu. Jochen Mohr]

never beleve the hollywood crap they serve you

the only thing america has done in THEY'R movies is :

making the enemy aka "the baddie's" as bad as possible (mostly with nonsense)
and bringing themselves aka "the goodie's" on the screen as heroe's...

my god i hate that sh*t


Mohr

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by emtmedic005

Im going to get yelled at for this one but, you never saw U-571, the movie, they gun down a whole life boat full of women and children and a few guys.
plus i've read accounts where the sub would surface after sinking a warship and gunning down the crew, afterall they were trying to sink the sub.

What accounts ? :hmm:
A link or further details would be helpful.

[Lzs von swe]

As far as I have found, this is the only known case were an U-boat commander surfaced and gunned down survivors, to protect his boat.

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u852.htm

http://www.uboataces.com/articles-war-criminal.shtml

[emtmedic005]

The book is called Servants of Evil by Bob Carruthers, its basically a book about former german sailors, airmen and soldiers talking about the war. In the first chapter on the U-Boat one of the sailors was saying how glamourous and noble things were in the uboat service, how they would help survivors by giving them water, food and directions to land. But then the same sailor mentions how that all changed after 1942, when the only thing given to survivors were bullets and death.

[joea]

Originally Posted by emtmedic005

The book is called Servants of Evil by Bob Carruthers, its basically a book about former german sailors, airmen and soldiers talking about the war. In the first chapter on the U-Boat one of the sailors was saying how glamourous and noble things were in the uboat service, how they would help survivors by giving them water, food and directions to land. But then the same sailor mentions how that all changed after 1942, when the only thing given to survivors were bullets and death.

Well you should have mentioned the book in the first place not the movie. Will look for it.

[emtmedic005]

I bought the book in the UK, well Wales, in a town that has more bookstores then people, it cost me 10 pounds, the ISBN is 0 2399 969 8

[Heibges]

According the the Uboat Commanders Handbook the uboat would open up with the deckgun and mg's at the same time: at a range of about 600m to 1000m. I don't know if tracers have gotten better, but "tracer burnout" today is about 1000m

well sometimes americans always tell bad stuff!!!

the only good american movie i know is robocop!!!

and yes there is only one acount of machinegunning survivors!!

and the americans killed survivors all the time!!!


oh yeah, i forgot

there was a kamakaze who survived when his plane crashed and the ameriicans where about to shoot him when he blew himself up with a grenade, just then a shot from a pistol got his head right in the middle of the explosion!

[Archive1]

Hey all, the real war ended several decades ago. Some of us survived, others did not, some did heroic things, others did not. Let's not refight it all over again based on various accounts that we cannot verify. We need to respect the conditions that all sides had to contend with and which we, thankfully, may never have to experience except vicariously or virtually. These kind of simulations let us at least faintly touch on the problems each combatant faced, but quite far removed from the burden of reality. The object here is to advance the quality of the simulation not make political points.

[filefool]

Originally Posted by magicsub

the only good american movie i know is robocop!!!

That's a bold statement, i hope you haven't seen too much american films yet.

BTW, Robocop was directed by a dutchman.

[Catfish]

Hello,
there are some american films that are even better than "Robocp" :rotfl:
if not U-571 . The british soldiers that really performed the capturing of the enigma and a whole U-boat later, must be angry in their graves about the concocted history of this U-571 thing.

From the official papers there indeed was one event, when a german U-boat shot at survivors of a greek tanker (was it the greek "Pelaeus", and the red sea?), and the Commander was Eck, who was shot after the war for this. What was even more ghastly was that the boat's doctor also shot at survivors. It later became clear that the quite young Eck, having heard horrifying stories of other U-boat commanders in late 1944 and 45, before his first patrol in 1945, and having heard about the enemy's new detection systems, must have been desperately afraid of his boat's position being revealed by survivors. I remember to have read he beached his boat somewhere on the red sea coast, and fled, but was later captured with his crew.
Anyway this was an atrocity that led to his trial.

There is a Hollywood film with Humphrey Bogart from 1942 (?), where an arrogant german U-boat commander with a white silk scarf (!) lets his crew gun down survivors of trade ship crews after a convoy attack, and it seems this was generally assumed by the allies to be done on regular terms. Maybe to steer the US public view into a direction to more easily accept joining the war, for the one reason for propaganda is to dehumanize the enemy, and it is still working that way today.

Fact is U-boat crews, or better their commanders were never ordered by Doenitz or anyone, to shoot at survivors. Indeed they often tried to help survivors even after the aforementioned Doenitz order - people are people after all. There is no evidence or paper that states such a behaviour. Which does not mean it may not have happened ...

It also is a fact, that US submarines did shoot at survivors. Indeed Doenitz was released from the prosecution of ordering to shoot at survivors, not because he could have given the order during war (which he had not), but because CinCPac made clear it had been common procedure in the US fleet. It was war, after all.

The stories of the japanese and the hand grenades - well i have heard this story so often, once it was a marine, then there were survivors still shooting from rafts at US submarines, then there was a hospital with wounded japanese left, and when the US entered the hospital, every wounded japanese had a hand grenade under his blanket etc. etc.. This smells badly of propaganda again, however it may certainly be possible. Problem is you do not get evidence from Hollywood films, or the internet.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish