in response to alot of "used too many torps to sink a boat" threads

[WernerSobe]

by the way look here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=118005

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by -Pv-

The same hull converted into an aircraft carrier was sunk with one torp. Six were fired and hit, one penetrated hitting a support beam and forcing the beam through a boiler.

Also not even remotely true: at least four of Archerfish's six torpedoes hit Shinano, and she still took almost eight hours to sink. Survivors' statements indicate that the main cause of the the sinking was bad damage control coupled with the ship running away at full speed with those holes being made ever worse by water rushing in at that speed. If not for that there's a reasonable chance she wouldn't have sunk at all.
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Shinano.htm

[TwistedFemur]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

I sank a carrier with one torpedo.

Ive posted about it before so I wont go into details but it happened.

IKWYM I sunk 2 shokaku class CV's with 4 torps. doin a photo recon of tokyo bay. Raised periscope and took some shots of the docks , then spun the scope around lookin to see if anybody was lookin at me, thats when
I saw the 2 carriers anchored in the middle of the bay!!

[tater]

I'v never sunk a CV in SH4 with more than 2 torpedos. One mk14 anywhere near MOT sinks Hiryu and Shokaku every single time for me (no damage mods).

It was said in here before, but the mk13 torpedo dropped from aicraft had ~90% of the warhead of a mk14. Weight was reduced by reducing the range (fuel).

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by tater

I'v never sunk a CV in SH4 with more than 2 torpedos. One mk14 anywhere near MOT sinks Hiryu and Shokaku every single time for me (no damage mods).

It was said in here before, but the mk13 torpedo dropped from aicraft had ~90% of the warhead of a mk14. Weight was reduced by reducing the range (fuel).

Two things. What is a MOT and how did aircraft get into this conversation ?

[Centred75]

If you watch the history channel show Dogfights and the episode about the Taffy 3 escort group that was attacked by the Japanese navy you will see how a single torpedo launched from (I forget the details) a destroyer escort broke the bow completely off a Japanese Heavy Cruiser. One torp and its done.

Thats not to say one torp can kill a ship. Its possible but it all depends on how you hit it. Sometimes a ship can absorb multiple torps because they hit and explode without doing any real serious damage (hull breaches but thats about it).

Ive saved many torps by just shooting 2 or 3 fish then wait a while to see if the deck is slowly sinking. If so itll go under eventually. I think the ship damage model is quite accurate.

Oh and on a side note, if you use the deck gun and aim for just below the base of the smoke stack you can blow the stack out and have it collapse into the ship. Very funny And I think it also really reduces the ships speed.

Cheers

[-Pv-]

According to the citation awarded to the Archerfish all 6 hit. According to the book Shinano, interviews with survivers and post war eval deducted the torpedo blisters did their job and the other torps hit and exploded without penetrating the hull.
I stand by the claim I made that best information indicates the ship was taken down by a lucky torp hitting in just the right place to explode the boiler which stopped power and a cascade of destruction which caused unstoppable flooding. Maybe it wasn't quite so much luck as skill since the sub commanders purposely set their torps to try and hit in such a way as to get past the blister defence and one actually made it. Regardless of how long it takes to sink, the result is the same.
It's possible to use the same skill in the game by knowing the weaknessess of the ships and taking advantage. Those who throw 6 torps at a ship and complain it's not realistic when the ship fails to sink in 5 minutes or less fail to take into account that's not how it HAS to be in the game which is capable of realistic damage and sinking depending on skill and patience of the player. It's equally faulty to claim that every large ship has to be taken down with 6 or more torps. I have sunk every ship I have targeted and not used that many torps on any of them. The game is rich enough in execution that one gamer's experience is not the rule for everyone all the time.

-Pv-

[java`s revenge]

The Java sunk within 15 minutes after one japanese torpedohit.


February 27 1942Doorman leaves port in the evening of the 27th to intercept several convoys heading for Java. Unfortunately, he was spotted and engaged by the Japanese covering force, consisting of 2 heavy cruisers (Nachi and Haguro), 2 light cruisers and 14 destroyers. The effectiveness of the CSF was hampered by difficulties in communication. In addition, the Japanese had a 2 to 1 advantage in 8"-guns. The Java was hit by a Japanese "Long Lance" torpedo from the Nachi at about 23.32 hours near the aft ammunitionstack, which exploded. The AA-deck with the 40 mm-guns caught fire and the stern broke off near the longroom, causing flooding in the aft engineroom and a heavy list to port. All electrical equipment shut down and the only thing the crew could do, was to abandon ship as soon as possible. No boats could be lowered without electricity, so all possible livesavers were thrown overboard, such as rafts, bamboosticks etc. The Java sank in about fifteen minutes, taking 512 crewmembers (including Captain Ph.B.M. van Straelen) with her. She sank in position 06.00 S, 112.05 E.

Here is she:

[MRV]

It makes no sense to specify this thread on Battleship tecnics and where a torp would cause a support beam to flip over, break through the decks, destroy the main toilettes and then fall down killing the chef or something.

As far as I know on both ends of the world battleships had thick armor in the area around their waterline, where they COULD but not HAD TO survive around 4 Torp hits. (there can always be a weak spot in the material and its giving in).
To sink a battleship, I recommend several torps at where the magazines are to cause an explosion with brute force ("explode, dammit!") or to check the draft of the target to hit it below its armor platings (which is hard without magnetic fuse because you risk a dud.)

Sinking BBs and CVs with one torp is possible, but not common as you have to be very lucky for this.....who would try and fire just one torp at such a big bucket???

I never try to save torpedoes when encountering a BB or CV ("Oh this one is nice, but I'll fire just to fishes because the other two are for the next one.") because -like steed said- if you just cause damage, you'll earn nothing.....and by the way I think no Commander in real life would have thought that way -you have what you have. ;-)

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by MRV

As far as I know on both ends of the world battleships had thick armor in the area around their waterline, where they COULD but not HAD TO survive around 4 Torp hits. (there can always be a weak spot in the material and its giving in).

I've done a lot of research on ship sinkings over the years, and this is one of the things about capital warships which is confusing to most people. Battleships did have a lot of armor at the waterline, but that armor is pretty much useless against torpedoes. It is designed to resist a high-speed projectile, and since a torpedo is relatively slow, and basically a great big HE shell, the armor should keep torpedoes out with no problem. Unfortunately, water doesn't compress, and the torpedo's explosion is fully directed at the armor. No matter how thick or how strong, the armor cracks. Also, armor weighs a lot, so the thickest main armor cannont be extended too far above or below the waterline, meaning there's a good chance the torpedo will go right under it.

The attempt to counter this was begun toward the end of World War One with the development of the Torpedo Defense System. This consists of a large underwater area being 'bulged', or having a secondary hull several meters outside of the main hull, and comprised of inner chambers, some filled with oil or some other light liquid, and some being empty. The idea is that when the torpedo hits this outer bulged area will be destroyed, but the main hull will not be compromised. Since this system is so complex, and by nature has to be very wide to work, it is usually only seen on battleships.

Yamato, Musashi, and of course Shinano, all had a bulge 3.5 meters wide (if I recall correctly), and it was twice as high, the upper and lower sections butting together. As I remember from Joe Enright's book Shinano, one of the main things that made that ship an easier kill was the fact that she was running light, and the torpedoes hit right on the seam between the two bulges, rendering them practically useless.

In the case of Yamato, one aerial observer noted that several torpedoes were stopped by her bulges, but once a bulge is hit it is no longer any good, and at least one torpedo was seen to pass right through a hole left by an earlier one, and explode in an engine or boiler room.

Java was a cruiser, and I don't remember if she was bulged at all. If so, it was much poorer protection than that carried by battleships. The Long Lance was the most powerful torpedo used, so I'm not surprised it only took one to sink her. Also, they weren't carried by submarines.

[MRV]

There is always something new to learn here, thx

[tater]

Japanese torpedos had considerably larger warheads than the mk14. In '41 it was probably 900 lbs, but by 1942 they had 1200 lb warheads.

tater

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, I looked in my library's copy of Conway's, and found that Java was a Dutch light cruiser in the 7000-ton range (designed displacement 6700, normal displacement about 7010), laid down in 1916, launched in 1921 and finished in 1923 (they weren't in much of a hurry!). Java`s revenge obviously knows much more about the ship's career and sinking than I do, but I now know that her armor belt was the usual 75mm (3"), and she carried no torpedo protection. Also, given her design and construction dates, she was probably not as well compartmentized as newer ships. I'm not surprised at all she sank in 15 minutes.

[java`s revenge]

Thanks mate for the explanation. But the cause was that she had
mines under the deck. So now comes the point that everybody looks to
the (target)ship but not at the cargo she carries if you know what i mean.
I always ask myself 3 to 4 torps for a tanker, how is that possilbe?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by java`s revenge

Thanks mate for the explanation. But the cause was that she had mines under the deck.

That always helps.:rotfl:

So now comes the point that everybody looks to the (target)ship but not at the cargo she carries if you know what i mean.
I always ask myself 3 to 4 torps for a tanker, how is that possilbe?

If you drop a match into a full gas tank on a car, the match will go out. If you drop a match into an empty gas tank, there will be a blast that will shoot flames out of the filler tube. Cars in movies are rigged with explosives that make them go boom. Cars in real-life wrecks occassionally burst into flames, but it is rare.

Sinking ships usually spill fuel into the water, and sometimes it burns. Sailors die from the flames, or they drown in the fuel oil. Tankers are more likely to spill oil everywhere than to burn, or sink quickly.