Poland vs. Germany

[Heibges]

I'm not saying the statement by the Polish Governent is a little out there, but Germans are naive if they think everyone is going to just forgive and forget.

Just look at the dehumanizing fashion they are portrayed in "Saving Private Ryan".

But the Poles collaborated vigorously, exterminating those folks in those Concentration Camps in southern Poland so part of that is their fault. Plus, didn't the Poles have a Pogrom against the remaining Jews in Poland in 1947?

Basically, I could care less what the Soviets did to any of those Nazi Collaborating countries in Eastern Europe. I say they got off easy.

[geetrue]

They should rename EU European Union to UE United Europe and be like the United States in it's behaviour to each other.

The south tolerates the north and the midwest puts up with the east and the southwest has it's own flavor with the west being the long haired hippies and the wacko's and the weed heads of Ameica.

Hey! We all get along it's ya'll's turn

edit: almost forgot ... you could put Tony Blair in charge of it lol

[tycho102]

We'd have more power in EU if Germans hadn't 'reduced our population' in World War II, says Polish PM

Yeah, and Stalin didn't do you any favors at Katyn.

[Hitman]

[QUOTE]Thanks Hitman. But don't European nations also have states/provinces/cantons/autonomous communities etc? Just seems like an extra umbrella gov't which is unnecessary and allows one set of countries to be in charge of another set. /QUOTE]

Well, yes, and so do the USA have counties below the states ... lower administrative divisions are also necessary:hmm: . But yes, europe carries to the Union the sudivisions of the states and that is too much You dientified very correctly on of the main problems: Excess bureaucracy. Unfortunately the enormous amount of ethnic/cultural groups favours this inmesely, specially in nations that have other nation-alikes inside (Even with different language), like us in Spain:

Currently we have these administrative divisions, from closer to farther away from the citizen (And all financed by our taxes ):

-The local administration (The "Major" house in english?)
-The Province
-The Autonomic Community (More or less like a State of the USA)
-The State (Spain)
-The EU

Almost to turn anyone mad....

Seems to be an attempt to remove the governed from the process of government. Which ain't very democratic. I may have to side with the Poles and Brits on this one

Sure...anything that puts the centres of decissions and power at a higher distance from the citizen is bad I personally don't like the EU as it is currently focused. I would prefer just a economic union, but no attempt to have a common military politic or such. Because it tends tend up like the UN, as too many different interests collide and in the end nobody wants to clean the house.

[quote=Hitman]

Thanks Hitman. But don't European nations also have states/provinces/cantons/autonomous communities etc? Just seems like an extra umbrella gov't which is unnecessary and allows one set of countries to be in charge of another set. /QUOTE]

Well, yes, and so do the USA have counties below the states ... lower administrative divisions are also necessary:hmm: . But yes, europe carries to the Union the sudivisions of the states and that is too much You dientified very correctly on of the main problems: Excess bureaucracy. Unfortunately the enormous amount of ethnic/cultural groups favours this inmesely, specially in nations that have other nation-alikes inside (Even with different language), like us in Spain:

Currently we have these administrative divisions, from closer to farther away from the citizen (And all financed by our taxes ):

-The local administration (The "Major" house in english?)
-The Province
-The Autonomic Community (More or less like a State of the USA)
-The State (Spain)
-The EU

Almost to turn anyone mad....

Sure...anything that puts the centres of decissions and power at a higher distance from the citizen is bad I personally don't like the EU as it is currently focused. I would prefer just a economic union, but no attempt to have a common military politic or such. Because it tends tend up like the UN, as too many different interests collide and in the end nobody wants to clean the house.

Sonds like we are in agreement on the most basic issue Hitman. That is, if I interpret you correctly, the government eliminating the will of the governed is not democracy. Like I stated earlier as a free trade zone the EU is top notch. All the citizens enjoy its fruits.

Why doesn't the populace rise up and demand democratic responsibility from their elected officials? In the US we have this type of thing going on with an immigration bill. For the last two weeks I have called my elected representative and called for its defeat. I am very angry that they still plan to shove it down our throats.

[XabbaRus]

The Kaczynski twins at it again. From all the stuff I have read about them they are the most creepy leaders I have heard of. also it is very iffy how they both got into the numer 1 and 2 positions.

Which one is the potato? I sure do get fed up of them playing the victim for everything.

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Why would someone try to circumvent the will of the people by changing the name from 'constitution' to 'treaty' unless some type of power grab was in progress?

Clever question and the answer is pretty rhetoric!
Some people would like the power to be reserved for the people allready in power, that is those on top of society, those with the money.
Back in 1992, Denmark voted no for the Maastricht treaty. The politicians promised, in the believe it would never happen, that if it was a NO, the union would be dead. What happened? The European politicians met again, made some changes of words, made some exceptions for our country, made a new referendum and voilà: they got their preferred answer YES, and thus the train was back on track.
Then years later, France and the Netherlands voted NO for the constitution treaty. "Oups, they (= the people) can not do that! Let's make a thinking pause and discuss openly about what to do..." What happens? The history repeats itself! The politicians meet again, changes some words and puts the same treaty out for a new referendum to the people and call it a new treaty! In this thinking pause, at least in Denmark, there hasn't been much discussion between the people and the politicians and with the press about what to do. It's plain ridiculous....

Originally Posted by Carotio

Clever question and the answer is pretty rhetoric!
Some people would like the power to be reserved for the people allready in power, that is those on top of society, those with the money.
Back in 1992, Denmark voted no for the Maastricht treaty. The politicians promised, in the believe it would never happen, that if it was a NO, the union would be dead. What happened? The European politicians met again, made some changes of words, made some exceptions for our country, made a new referendum and voilà: they got their preferred answer YES, and thus the train was back on track.
Then years later, France and the Netherlands voted NO for the constitution treaty. "Oups, they (= the people) can not do that! Let's make a thinking pause and discuss openly about what to do..." What happens? The history repeats itself! The politicians meet again, changes some words and puts the same treaty out for a new referendum to the people and call it a new treaty! In this thinking pause, at least in Denmark, there hasn't been much discussion between the people and the politicians and with the press about what to do. It's plain ridiculous....

Sounds like the folks you have elected are pulling the rug out from under you. If it goes through, the 'treaty' that is, democracy is dead in Europe.

[Tchocky]

That's an exaggeration. Countries can always pull out.

Originally Posted by Tchocky

That's an exaggeration. Countries can always pull out.

Economically that would be a disaster to any nation that pulled out. Think of how those people would suffer.

I'l say it again; as a free trade zone the EU and its citizens benefit greatly. This gov't 'treaty' BS is a power grab.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Economically that would be a disaster to any nation that pulled out. Think of how those people would suffer.

I'l say it again; as a free trade zone the EU and its citizens benefit greatly. This gov't 'treaty' BS is a power grab.

I think its Norway thats not in the EU.

They still have to follow EU trade rules or the EU won't trade with them, but they don't get a say in the makeing of those rules.

Not good to be out of the EU!

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Sounds like the folks you have elected are pulling the rug out from under you. If it goes through, the 'treaty' that is, democracy is dead in Europe.

Well, I didn't vote for our current government...
Anyway, our prime minister is so arrogant that he wouldn't even confirm to the press that the current meetings with the other european politicians about this new treaty would result in a referendum about the new treaty. Which normally is the issue, according to the Danish constitution, when giving up suverainity (spelling)...

I think, sometimes the politicians forget, they are the representatives of the people = all the people, and as such should consult the people more often about what to do about major issues. Sometimes they act like the monarchs of past centuries...

Okay, back to topic: the Poles which I know here in Denmark, exchange students, would probably laugh in the faces of their current leaders. But sadly, those two twins are in power, because a majority of the Polish voters elected them... and this is sometimes the bad part of democracy! Oh well, a new election will come up again and we get a new opportunity to kick these types out of office again...

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by Letum

I think its Norway thats not in the EU.

They still have to follow EU trade rules or the EU won't trade with them, but they don't get a say in the makeing of those rules.

Not good to be out of the EU!

Correct! Norway is not part of EU, but I think they survive well, because of the rich underground in their part of the North Sea = lots of oil!
I still think, though they may follow some EU rules, they are pretty independant still, and countries outside of EU would still trade with them. And if Norway is outside of the EU, it's because the Norwegians have voted NO for membership - even two times, I think!

Originally Posted by Carotio

Correct! Norway is not part of EU, but I think they survive well, because of the rich underground in their part of the North Sea = lots of oil!
I still think, though they may follow some EU rules, they are pretty independant still, and countries outside of EU would still trade with them. And if Norway is outside of the EU, it's because the Norwegians have voted NO for membership - even two times, I think!

Sounds like the Norwegians had a chance to vote. By making the consitution a treaty you have no vote. Rise up Europe! Yor elected representatives are throwing away your rights for their own personal power. Don't you see it?!!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by geetrue

edit: almost forgot ... you could put Tony Blair in charge of it lol

No, word is that as europe's new special envoy he is getting the Middle East to enlighten it with his foreignpolitical brilliance and ingenious foresight.

Why do politicians whose terms are ending or who were voted out of office - so often seem to fall the stairs upwards? Doesn't a failed vote, for example, mean that the man in question is expected NOT to continue, instead of continuing?