Is my sub made of lead?

[Bane]

Originally Posted by U-Bones

I can say that exactly zero of my damage control (or other) problems have been related to submerged saves, since I never load and play submerged saves.

I think the majority of these tracebacks were hasty. The condition is possible even on port saves.

This whole "you can't save while submerged" thing should be on the bug list, not a community accepted limitation. This isn't acceptable behaviour for a game that allows you to save anywhere, including submerged.

If saving submerged causes problems (for whatever asinine reason which I wouldn't believe anyway) - don't let us save submerged! Brilliant! If you're going to let us do so - those saves better damn well work correctly when I load them! End of story, no excuses.

[CaptainHaplo]

There has been alot of testing of DC - and there are 2 seperate models at work. Hull damage - and internal damage. The issue is that currently - hull damage also affects "floatabilty" - in addition to crush depth. Once you start getting to 25-30% hull damage - you will see a noticeable issue when you dive. If your aft end was damaged - you will be tail heavy, and vice versa. Even "fully repaired".

One theory on that is MBT or Trim tank damage being modelled. We are starting to see some with alot of Ram not have the issue - so it also could be just a quirk due to machine specs. Unfortunately - most of us doing the testing are running low amounts of ram - so if one of the high ram users can drop down to 1G for a test we may get an answer.

In the meantime - you can find the "sweet spot" if your having dive control issues. Order surface but at all stop - as you sink - use your speed to counterbalance the weight. This is much easier if your aft heavy, but reverse will work when your nose drops - although not as well. Then you "motor off" underwater until you can get the range sufficient to surface.

One thing about the models - if you start to take hull damage from pressure - it continues until you SURFACE - so if you just go back up after an evasion to PD and try to sneak off - your still going to be taking slow damage. The damage counter doesnt reset until you surface. Odd.... Hope this explanation helps.

Good Hunting.
Captain Haplo

[mcoca]

I just had an experience that makes me think the ballast tank theory is correct. After a desperate surface battle with some destroyers (which I won), I realized I couldn't turn any more, even though there was no damage to the rudder in the DC screen. With the external view, I saw the rudder was missing, presumably blown off.

Now, that damage was there, visible in the outside, but not in the damage control screen. I managed to reach an advanced base (exploiting a save-load bug to turn), and refit, but the rudder was still missing, even though other destroyed items were fixed.

I suspect now that damage to certain exterior items of the sub is modelled correctly, maybe including the ballast tanks, but that damage a) is not displayed anywhere (except in the physical model, and how would you tell a damaged tank apart?) and b) is not repairable. Sounds like a bug to me...

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by Bane

This whole "you can't save while submerged" thing should be on the bug list, not a community accepted limitation. This isn't acceptable behaviour for a game that allows you to save anywhere, including submerged.

But you are correct in this: If the save can not be reasonably complete and reliable - it should not be allowed.


If saving submerged causes problems (for whatever asinine reason which I wouldn't believe anyway) - don't let us save submerged! Brilliant! If you're going to let us do so - those saves better damn well work correctly when I load them! End of story, no excuses.

I was not taking a position on how well saving works or does not work. I was debunking the myth that anyone has documented it as the cause for this particular bug (or any sub specific bug for that matter).

As for saves, there are two components. Sub state, and world state. I have never seen credible evidence that sub state is not reasonably and accurately preserved across saves. Submerged or surfaced. (ok, all stop is a very obvious exception, but not too hard to live with).

On the other hand, there is reason to believe that the world state, which includes random events, multiple scripts, numerous AI's and other non persistant items.... well lets just say I would not bet my life on everything being accounted for.

You are correct about this: If the save is not going to be reasonably reliable - it should be disallowed, but in my mind this applies more to "contact" than to "depth".

[FAdmiral]

Here is a little mod that may help in seeing those save files to check for
unknown damage to the outside hull:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114405

Bulkheads & Hulls are two different damage items, bulkheads are repaired
from inside, hull is not repairable while at sea. The save file reports this.

JIM

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by FAdmiral

Here is a little mod that may help in seeing those save files to check for
unknown damage to the outside hull:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114405

Bulkheads & Hulls are two different damage items, bulkheads are repaired
from inside, hull is not repairable while at sea. The save file reports this.

JIM

Hull damage, as documented in save files, which I have been intimately familiar with, is NOT the cause of the lead boat. The lead boat can occur with ZERO damage showing in the save file.

[bruschi sauro]

I had this bug.All damages repaired but the sub was on the bottom ...
blow ballast...the sub on the bottom
blow ballast....nothing happened.. the sub on the bottom
Another bug for the dev team..In this moment I play with Medieval II total war,
I snapped the disk of SH4

[NZ_Wanderer]

I had this bug happen to me as well, except I tangled with a 3 DD not a shore battery...
I sank like a rock to the bottom (thank god not too far down), and there I sat waiting for the DD's above me to find me...
Couldn't rise at all and sneak away...
Luckily they left after an hour or so, so then tried to rise... - No luck...

Then I remembered reading this thread so proceeded to tap the blow ballast key repeatadly, and it worked, I began to rise...
Once on the surface I set course for the nearest friendly base I could refit at...
All damage was fixed on the way, Once I had to dive, and again I sank like a rock (luckily I wasn't in deep water, so hit the bottom with a thud causing my damage crew to get of their butts again and fix some things...
As I had recharged my Air etc while being on the surface I was again able to tab the blow ballast key again until I started to rise.. (mind you, I sat on the bottom until dark)
This ended up happening several more times , so I just made sure I piloted my ship in the shallows until I managed to get back to a refit base.

I wouldn't mind it happening IF it showed up in my damage screen or something, but to be told there is NOTHING wrong with my sub while I am sinking like a rock to the bottom is just plain crazy...