Buchheim about Petersen's movie

[Kaleun Cook]

In the book the fighters go for the flak guns, the bombers unload on the bunkers. So one could indeed critize all those explosions everywhere in the movie. Also, in the book there's nothing said about how many and which men in the story die during that air raid. I guess it was nesseccary to let most of them die in the movie because the charakter of the Kaleun isn't as "impressive" as in the book so it wouldn't have been shocking enough if only he died.

Edit: On that map Germany isn't in range either but it was as you know. ;]

[Ducimus]

What I found impressive was that he already knew - the text is dated 1981 - that from then on this movie was going to be the one example for the uboat war all over the world and almost noone would care what's written in books about it anymore.

Too true. A movie can be powerful. Both in its subject content, and how its presented. If Das Boot the movie was never created, i'd dare say there wouldnt be as many uboat fans as there are here on subsim. If "das boot" was a movie about the pacific war (under a different title naturally), then you'd probably see more people clamoring for US fleet boats over German type 7c's. The power of a movie, is a big influence on people. It's what i call "The das boot effect"

If the movie had portrayed the Germans from hollywoods point of view, then Das boot would have been nothing more then another U-571.And any reasonable person will admit, the machine gun scene on u-571 is derived from old WW2 propganda which persists to this day. In short, it was bull****. On the otherhand Das boot was portrayed from a more humanity point of view, but also one which seems to absolve German uboat crews of their wartime role against the allied nations, and ultimatly created alot of fans of uboats and the men who sailed them. Primarly as a result of the movie das boot.

One story is forgotten in all of this though. That of the allied sailors who had their ships torpedoed from under them. The ones who had lost their lives at sea trying to deliver vital supplies. What about their story? There' no movie about that, so you never hear about it. Ultimatly the Uboats of WW2, sailed under the flag of the third riech, but create a movie and present it in just the right way, and you can make people overlook that.

A movie, is a very powerful thing.

[Kaleun Cook]

One story is forgotten in all of this though. That of the allied sailors who had their ships torpedoed from under them. The ones who had lost their lives at sea trying to deliver vital supplies. What about their story? There' no movie about that, so you never hear about it. Ultimatly the Uboats of WW2, sailed under the flag of the third riech, but create a movie and present it in just the right way, and you can make people overlook that.

True. All I've seen about this "other side" was a website on which some guy collected stuff about the convoy his gradfather's ship sank in. It's been said in Buchheim's book as well, I can't quote it right now but it has something like: how brave must these men be. some of them lost their ship four or five times, got picked up by an escort and did join another ship right away.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

And any reasonable person will admit, the machine gun scene on u-571 is derived from old WW2 propganda which persists to this day. In short, it was bull****. On the otherhand Das boot was portrayed from a more humanity point of view, but also one which seems to absolve German uboat crews of their wartime role against the allied nations, and ultimatly created alot of fans of uboats and the men who sailed them. Primarly as a result of the movie das boot.

On the other other hand, there is no way the scene from the end of the book - the one with the Spanish merchant - could have made it into the movie.

"What if we had torpedoed them? A neutral ship?"
"Then it would have been to our benefit that there be no-one to tell the tale."
(Paraphrasing from memory, as I can't get to my copy of the book to actually look)

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Did you know the captain didnt technically die? using http://www.uboat.net/ the captain from that time period died in the 80's.

[Sailor Steve]

And helped as a technical advisor on the film.

However, your link goes to a wrong place. Made the library's computer crash.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And helped as a technical advisor on the film.

However, your link goes to a wrong place. Made the library's computer crash.

Rectified!

[Kaleun Cook]

Later in the text Buchheim says that in his version of the script the meeting with the spanish merchant would have caused the katharsis after all the traumata. You did remember the lines very well, Sailor Steve, just read the ending. Actually the captain even says they would have had to make sure that there was noone left to tell the tale - by killing any survivors with the manned flak gun.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips

Did you know the captain didnt technically die? using http://www.uboat.net/ the captain from that time period died in the 80's.

If you really wanted to expand on the details. U-96 was never in the 3rd flotilla, nor did it put in to La Rochelle after the failed Gibralter crossing.

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Please-blame Hollywood all you like. I personally would never take those liberties. If Bucheim and Lehmenbrock hadn't been there themselves, I wonder if Peterson would have been so faithful to the book?

As for him blaming the movie for anything, even some u-boat veterans complained that the book was over-dramatized as well.

I'm sorry. You are right. And I only meant: Bloody American[film-maker]s.

[Iron Budokan]

Thanks for the translation. I found this fascinating.

[Kaleun Cook]

Thanks for the translation. I found this fascinating.

It's not done yet, he wrote much more about it. Later he argues about the not too authentic clothing and behauviour.

[Henri II]

Originally Posted by Kaleun Cook

Later in the text Buchheim says that in his version of the script the meeting with the spanish merchant would have caused the katharsis after all the traumata. You did remember the lines very well, Sailor Steve, just read the ending. Actually the captain even says they would have had to make sure that there was noone left to tell the tale - by killing any survivors with the manned flak gun.

I always wondered if he (the captain) was really earnest about this, or if he was just playing the tough man, talking bull**** after it was over, and wouldn't have given the order if it really came to it. I know 1939 is not 1942 and Lemp is not Willenbrock, but when Lemp sank the Athenia there was no machinegunning of survivors.

[Camaero]

Really interesting read! Thanks bud.

[Catfish]

Hello,
a lot of good arguments, and thanks for translating this for our friends abroad.
There was even an idea to get "Das Boot" on stage as a production for a theatre, for the scenes inside the boat did not require too much space.

A movie can be powerful, and U-571 just made me sick. I really don't know why they made this film, i mean was there any intention or message besides making money ? Then i read the movie was applauded by invited US veterans after its first night - seems apart from the real war, propaganda in the 40ies did leave some impression.

If you read Buchheim's books (he recently died) you finally know what he really thought - or so i think. The U-boat war was a "clean" one, usually nothing was left to bury, and the men inside the boat barely knew what was happening around the boat. A lot of people were indeed volunteers, if only to escape combat along the frontlines. The war at sea made it easy for propaganda, no corpses, battlefields, ruins and the like.

First Buchheim was enthusiastic and fascinated, but as he experienced the real war aside from the government lies and propaganda, he began to see the human side apart from this "iron will" and victory talk, and he changed his mind - but exactly when this happened you cannot be sure, maybe he had doubts, but really changed his mind only after the war. Indeed that is why so many veterans criticized him - he supported the war effort, but wrote as if he had been against it all the time. At least he wrote anything about it, without that we would never have heard so much of the U-boat war. Most veterans i know prefer to keep still.

There are three books loaded with pictures, from his time as a war correspondent, and a lot of comments and reports as well. At first he was utterly fascinated, if not even frightened by the grey steel fishes. He does not even deny that he felt honoured and proud to go aboard "for a ride", and it is also clear why he was there: To make propaganda movies and pictures. Speaking of embedding of journalists, but he had to be biased, as well as he was not allowed to hold back or keep any film or photo, same with his paintings and sketches. Maybe there was some inner pressure he wanted the movie to be made, and as exact as possible.

Greetings,
Catfish