So whats wrong with escorts? They cant find me not matter what

[RypeL]

I dont know yet if its till the case with 1.2 but in 1.1 i think i you could "fix" the convois not moving problem by saving and reloading. Somehow after reloading they start moving again. At least thats what happened to me.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search.

Wanna bet ? Try this sit outside a convoy and hit full ahead for a few moments while at perisope depth then cut the engines. If you have good escorts around they will immediatly turn for you.

The issue seems to be if you are in the "middle" of the convoy its very hard to "hear" you admist all the other noise. If I recall correctly this was actually a viable tactic.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Wanna bet ? Try this sit outside a convoy and hit full ahead for a few moments while at perisope depth then cut the engines. If you have good escorts around they will immediatly turn for you.

The issue seems to be if you are in the "middle" of the convoy its very hard to "hear" you admist all the other noise. If I recall correctly this was actually a viable tactic.

I agree that that will happen if you make a lot of noise and agree that being inside a convoy to mask your noise is a viable IRL tactic. What I'm saying if the DD's don't see or hear you, but you blow up some ships so they know you're out there... they start their search from wherever they happen to be, which may or may not be realistic... but I thought they were supposed to guess where you fired from and move to pen you in, which I don't see happening.

[OddjobXL]

It could be that they can't spot torpedo wakes? Or maybe it depends on lighting conditions and crew quality? If they don't know where you fired from "guessing" might be hard and they'll just look around where they happen to be. I do agree that the behavior I've seen from some escorts (and I probably haven't had as many missions as most folks here so WMMV) does seem to be them deliberately slowing down or even stopping to listen. That doesn't explain why the merchants they're guarding also slow down and sit around. I'm trying to remember what I've read about IJN convoy tactics and it seems that they usually try to run for it leaving one or two escorts behind to pin the sub down and rescue survivors.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by AhhhFresh

I've experienced incredible and inept escorts in both task forces and convoys, and I don't think that's the issue. When they slow down to 2 knts they're actually not being dumb... they're listening for you and communicating with each other. If they're going fast they can't use their sonar effectively because of their own prop noise. What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search. I think if they see your scope or your sub through the water or make a positive sonar contact then they are quite good and very challenging to evade... but if you fire from inside the convoy, well away from the escorts, and go deep before they know what's going on... then they aren't going to vector in and search so they seem incompetent.

Pretty good assessment here. Also, when they spot your torps and slow down, this messes up your solution something bad. Your now solution for 10 kts just dropped to 5 kts and the solution is blown.

[crazypete]

I dont see the benefit of slowing down the convoy....

I just sit there and say....ummm...ok and torpedo the sitting duck escorts and a few transports, zoom into the midst of the convoy while reloading and taking potshots at the remaining sitting ducks.

Even if they can now magically hear me, they usually dont come after me.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally Posted by OddjobXL

That doesn't explain why the merchants they're guarding also slow down and sit around. I'm trying to remember what I've read about IJN convoy tactics and it seems that they usually try to run for it leaving one or two escorts behind to pin the sub down and rescue survivors.

Oddly enough, I saw the turn and run + couple of escorts to pin down tactic from a monster task force... exactly when I'd think they would stop and guard their wounded BB's and pound me into oblivion with their 6 or 8 DD's (can't recall)... instead they motored off in fear of a single submarine at max speed, leaving one Yamamoto dead in the water and another limping along at 2 knts with no protection. When the DD's sent after me couldn't find me they gave up and went back to the convoy.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by crazypete

I dont see the benefit of slowing down the convoy....

I just sit there and say....ummm...ok and torpedo the sitting duck escorts and a few transports, zoom into the midst of the convoy while reloading and taking potshots at the remaining sitting ducks.

Even if they can now magically hear me, they usually dont come after me.

First benefit, the four torpedeos looking for vessels that are doing 10 kts are coming at vessels now going slower then 10 kts. All four have a high probability of missing the intended target. Second benefit, DD can manuever better and listen for you as well. I have only seen the dumb DD once. The rest have been very good. It is a mixed bag of what you are going to get.

[CCIP]

Can't comment on the issue - soon as I got the patch, I reinstalled nvdrifter's harder escorts mod and changed all escort AI skill levels to at least competent. :p All in all, no complaints there...

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll grab that one after some vanilla play first. Right now just the green color keys and less radio traffic mod.

[OddjobXL]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

First benefit, the four torpedeos looking for vessels that are doing 10 kts are coming at vessels now going slower then 10 kts. All four have a high probability of missing the intended target. Second benefit, DD can manuever better and listen for you as well. I have only seen the dumb DD once. The rest have been very good. It is a mixed bag of what you are going to get.

I've seen that mixed bag of yours too and I like it that way. Having every encounter be a huge waiting game that drags out can get old but facing only half-hearted defenders takes far too much of that good "Das Boot" tension out of the encounter. Not knowing which you'll get spices up the encounters. It tempts you to take risks you otherwise wouldn't dare if every single escort captain is uber elite. That uncertainty is part of the fun. Do I, don't I?

However, I think merchant ships slowing in a convoy after an attack doesn't jibe with reality. It's also not that great a tactic. These guys don't know where the subs are, how many subs there are, whether there might be other hostile assets incoming as called by the subs - maybe even more subs in distant waters. You want to get the chickens out of the fox coop as fast as possible. Imagine explaining to a court-martial panel that you wanted your dependant merchants to slow down and linger in a kill zone so you could hear where the subs are hiding...

[BlackSpot]

Some years ago I vaugely remember reading about the difference between Japanese escort tactics and the allied Atlantic ones. IIRC, the japanese did not patrol though the convoy lanes. ie. between the merchants but the allies did. Can anyone clarify?

[AVGWarhawk]

In 1942 and early 1943, US submarines played little threat to Japanese ships, whether warships or merchant ships. They were initially hampered by poor torpedoes, which often failed to detonate on impact, ran too deep, or even ran wild. As the US submarine menace was slight in the beginning, Japanese commanders became complacent and as a result did not invest heavily into ASW measures or upgrade their convoy protection to any degree to what the Allies in the Atlantic did. Often encouraged by the Japanese not placing a high priority on the Allied submarine threat, US skippers were relatively complacent and docile compared to their German counterparts, who understod the "life and death" urgency in the Atlantic.

Japanese antisubmarine forces consisted mainly of their destroyers, with sonar and depth charges. However, Japanese destroyer design emphasized surface nightfighting and torpedo delivery over anti-submarine duties. By the time they finally developed a destroyer escorts which was more economical and better suited to convoy protection, it was too late to save their shipping lanes. Late in the war, the Japanese Army and Navy used Magnetic Anomaly Detector MAD) gear in aircraft to locate shallow submerged submarines. The Japanese Army also developed two small aircraft carriers and Ka-1 autogyro aircraft for use in an antisubmarine warfare role.
The Japanese depth charge attacks by its surface forces initially proved fairly unsuccessful against U.S. fleet submarines. Unless caught in shallow water, a U.S. submarine commander could normally escape destruction, sometimes using temperature gradients (thermoclines). Additionally, IJN doctrine emphasised fleet action, not convoy protection, so the best ships and crews went elsewhere.[2] Moreover, during the first part of the war, the Japanese tended to set their depth charges too shallow, unaware U.S. submarines could dive below 150 feet (45m). Unfortunately, this deficiency was revealed in a June 1943 press conference held by U.S. Congressman Andrew J. May, and soon enemy depth charges were set to explode as deep as 250 feet (76m). Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood, COMSUBPAC, later estimated May's revelation cost the navy as many as ten submarines and 800 crewmen.[3][4]
Much later in the war, active and passive sonobuoys were developed for aircraft use.



Found a Wikipedia. ASW not quite as tough as the Atlantic boys. Maybe we are just so used to having our butts hammered in the Atlantic that we think we should be having our butts hammered in the Pacific as well.

[OddjobXL]

For those who can read Japanese there might be something useful on Museum of Wartime Japanese Merchant Ships. Could have something on actual IJN convoy tactics. Unfortunately, I don't read Japanese. I'll crack a few books when I get home and see what I can find.

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by AhhhFresh

I've experienced incredible and inept escorts in both task forces and convoys, and I don't think that's the issue. When they slow down to 2 knts they're actually not being dumb... they're listening for you and communicating with each other. If they're going fast they can't use their sonar effectively because of their own prop noise. What they don't seem to do, is figure out bearing from where you must have fired from and motor over there before they start their search. I think if they see your scope or your sub through the water or make a positive sonar contact then they are quite good and very challenging to evade... but if you fire from inside the convoy, well away from the escorts, and go deep before they know what's going on... then they aren't going to vector in and search so they seem incompetent.

And I would buy that, except for the fact Im motoring around at 1/3 or 2/3 speed, loading torpedos, and shooting merchants like fish in a barrel. Making enough noise for Tojo to here me back in Japan.

Only 2 or 3 times have I ever had a DD come screaming at me while Im doing this. Most of the time they just sit there.

Now this was with 1.1 and my orignal load. I have since uninstalled and reinstalled as I have heard that some people suspect that they had a bad install (I doubt it but its worth a try). I also applied 1.2 last night but only encountered 1 merchant vessal before I had to shut down. I will be curious to see if the reload and/or patch gives me aggressive DD's now...