No TDC on Suger Boats - Page 2

Charos · 04-03-07, 11:15 PM

Thanks for the headsup on the fact that S-Class didnt REALLY have a TDC - Being somewhat ignorant of US WW2 Submarines, I didnt know this fact.

Being a fan of Type II and type XXIII German U-boats I love the smaller more "Clunky" variety - it makes things all the more rewarding.
especially now I know I dont have a TDC I love the S-Class even more.

Other than the stadiometer I do everything manual anyways so Im looking forward to getting rid of that as well.

Im off to start a fresh S-Class 100% Full difficulty Campaign - we should start the 100% NO TDC WW1 Sub club.

In anycase I found a great link for anybody wanting to tread these dangerous waters the old fashioned way,.

http://www.valoratsea.com/notdc.htm

Im still trying to figure out why my SIMULATED S-Class has a TDC though.

DeePsix501 · 04-04-07, 12:47 AM

From what I gather/have read, the earliest boats to get the TDCs we see and use in the game (TDC Mk III) was first installed in the USS Tambor and all later subs till the MKIV came out which was adapted for the new torpedoes and the use of SJ radar. In the book i'm reading "Take Her Deep" Galantin described the USS Sculpin, a Sargo class sub as having an older, bulky, table top TDC in her control room.

Very brave of you to not use the TDC and input all of it by hand. Huzzah for Trigonometry!

Jungman · 04-04-07, 03:01 AM

:p Good info and links! I like to make a chart ruler just for those torps I will use. Since we know if using the Mark 14 at slow is 31 knots, A simple look up, just as a back up reference. From that other link

Quote:

Any submarine during the war that had its TDC go down from damage, or technical problems, would have to resort to this method, as it’s primary solution. Believe it or not, it is still in use today as a backup to all that multimillion-dollar fire control system!

Yep, one Electromagnetic Pulse Blast (EMP) from a nuclear detenation, we will all be pulling out our old slide rules, once all the electronics are fried.

It would be neat to have the TDC be able to get damaged also in game, so you would have to use the old fasion method. I guess you could roll a dice for whatever damage and role play it that way, if took you serious damage from a DC, and are brave.

jmr · 04-04-07, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by don1reed

Doubting Thomas'

I posted this in June 2006 on the SHIII forum:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94608

don1reed, are you whiz wheel files still available for download? Unfortunately the download links in that thread you listed are dead.

Thanks!

don1reed · 04-04-07, 03:07 PM

jmr, send me your email via pm

Torpex752 · 04-04-07, 10:40 PM

No TDC is really rewarding, and now with the tools they have in SH4 its even better. I use to use a board with a blank sheet of paper to do some of the tracking! LOL

Frank

Charos · 04-05-07, 01:28 AM

OK I have just completed some testing as I thought something was amiss with the TBT and Attack periscope Graticules (Observation scope is probably affected as well but I didnt test.

Can someone else verify my tests.?

I made a simple mission with my S class perpendicular to a Kongo Battleship and a small old tanker.

Both ships were stationary throughout test.

I varied the distance to get accurate full Graticule distances rather than partial marks as it makes things more accurate.

I used the Kongo and this tanker because they represent both rather tall and short masts

IE: 42M for Kongo and 19.7M for tanker.

The Game manual states

Periscope on high range is 0.25 Deg for small graticule marks and 1 Deg for Large.

TBT is 0.2 Deg for small and 1 Deg for large graticule marks.

BTW: Its impossible to have 0.2 Deg for small Graticule markers on the TBT if the main markers are 1 Deg as there is only 4 spacings not 5 between large marks.

Here is my results :

Attack periscope: Small graticule spacings = 0.29 Deg
Attack periscope: Large graticule spacings = 1.16 Deg

TBT : Small graticule spacings = 0.16 Deg
TBT : Large graticule spacings = 0.64 Deg

In other words there is an error 0.04 Deg per graticle marker on both instruments, one larger the other smaller.

The error compounds if you were tracking on the surface with the TBT and then use the attack periscope for the final measurements.

The error may not sound like much but consider a Kongo at 1000M range useing the attack periscope.

Mast = 42M
Angle = 2.4 DEG

On your 0.25 Deg per graticule attack scope you see this as 9.6 markers.
Calculate 9.6*0.25 Deg = 2.4 Deg
Range to target = 1002 Meters.

But as we know the Markers are REALLY 0.29 Deg so 9.6*0.29 = 2.8 Deg.

An arror of 0.4 Deg or a more importantly a range calculation of 859 Meters.

A difference of 141 Meters or approx 60% the length of the Kongo Target.

A MK10 Torpedo travelling at 36Knots would take 8 Seconds to get 141 Meters.

Or alternately a Kongo can move 82 Meters in 8 Seconds at 20 Knots.

04-04-07, 12:47 AM	#17
DeePsix501 Navy Dude Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 173 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	From what I gather/have read, the earliest boats to get the TDCs we see and use in the game (TDC Mk III) was first installed in the USS Tambor and all later subs till the MKIV came out which was adapted for the new torpedoes and the use of SJ radar. In the book i'm reading "Take Her Deep" Galantin described the USS Sculpin, a Sargo class sub as having an older, bulky, table top TDC in her control room. Very brave of you to not use the TDC and input all of it by hand. Huzzah for Trigonometry! __________________ In Memory of the USS Triton (SS-201) - May We Never Forget Those On Eternal Patrol

04-04-07, 03:07 PM	#20
don1reed Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Valhalla: Silent Generation Posts: 1,149 Downloads: 910 Uploads: 0	jmr, send me your email via pm __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell

04-03-07, 11:15 PM	#16
Charos Helmsman Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 109 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the headsup on the fact that S-Class didnt REALLY have a TDC - Being somewhat ignorant of US WW2 Submarines, I didnt know this fact. Being a fan of Type II and type XXIII German U-boats I love the smaller more "Clunky" variety - it makes things all the more rewarding. especially now I know I dont have a TDC I love the S-Class even more. Other than the stadiometer I do everything manual anyways so Im looking forward to getting rid of that as well. Im off to start a fresh S-Class 100% Full difficulty Campaign - we should start the 100% NO TDC WW1 Sub club. In anycase I found a great link for anybody wanting to tread these dangerous waters the old fashioned way,. http://www.valoratsea.com/notdc.htm Im still trying to figure out why my SIMULATED S-Class has a TDC though.

04-04-07, 10:40 PM	#21
Torpex752 Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Deep River, CT Posts: 255 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	No TDC is really rewarding, and now with the tools they have in SH4 its even better. I use to use a board with a blank sheet of paper to do some of the tracking! LOL Frank

04-05-07, 01:28 AM	#22
Charos Helmsman Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 109 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	OK I have just completed some testing as I thought something was amiss with the TBT and Attack periscope Graticules (Observation scope is probably affected as well but I didnt test. Can someone else verify my tests.? I made a simple mission with my S class perpendicular to a Kongo Battleship and a small old tanker. Both ships were stationary throughout test. I varied the distance to get accurate full Graticule distances rather than partial marks as it makes things more accurate. I used the Kongo and this tanker because they represent both rather tall and short masts IE: 42M for Kongo and 19.7M for tanker. The Game manual states Periscope on high range is 0.25 Deg for small graticule marks and 1 Deg for Large. TBT is 0.2 Deg for small and 1 Deg for large graticule marks. BTW: Its impossible to have 0.2 Deg for small Graticule markers on the TBT if the main markers are 1 Deg as there is only 4 spacings not 5 between large marks. Here is my results : Attack periscope: Small graticule spacings = 0.29 Deg Attack periscope: Large graticule spacings = 1.16 Deg TBT : Small graticule spacings = 0.16 Deg TBT : Large graticule spacings = 0.64 Deg In other words there is an error 0.04 Deg per graticle marker on both instruments, one larger the other smaller. The error compounds if you were tracking on the surface with the TBT and then use the attack periscope for the final measurements. The error may not sound like much but consider a Kongo at 1000M range useing the attack periscope. Mast = 42M Angle = 2.4 DEG On your 0.25 Deg per graticule attack scope you see this as 9.6 markers. Calculate 9.60.25 Deg = 2.4 Deg Range to target = 1002 Meters. But as we know the Markers are REALLY 0.29 Deg so 9.60.29 = 2.8 Deg. An arror of 0.4 Deg or a more importantly a range calculation of 859 Meters. A difference of 141 Meters or approx 60% the length of the Kongo Target. A MK10 Torpedo travelling at 36Knots would take 8 Seconds to get 141 Meters. Or alternately a Kongo can move 82 Meters in 8 Seconds at 20 Knots.